The Vulcan mind meld. Star Trek Into Darkness Question

[DonIago]

It's a trivialization that the book handled the scene differently, when it likely was written based solely on the screenplay, which may not have even discussed how the scene would actually be handled?

Really???

I could understand being upset that the book didn't depict the scene in the same manner, but to suggest the author set out to trivialize what occurred hardly seems fair.

 

[T'Bonz]

I don't know why the author changed the scene. Perhaps because to depict it accurately would be disturbing to either the author or the readers?

As a reader, I felt cheated that the clear meaning of the scene was changed to make it less offensive. I had been curious before reading the book as to how it would be depicted in the novelization and was disappointed in how it was handled. It was a cop out.

 

[DonIago]

That's my point though...I don't believe the book was written at a time when it was clear how the scene would be portrayed in the film.

It's not a cop-out if the author didn't know how it was ultimately going to be portrayed. It's a matter of the people making the film and the people writing the book interpreting the same source text differently at that point.

It's the same thing that leads novelizations to often include deleted scenes or other variances from the film (GEN's disposal of Kirk, for instance).

 

[soornge]

i think that the idea of consent if not explicite would have to be implicite based on how private and isolationlist vulcans are by nature .

 

[soornge]

That's my point though...I don't believe the book was written at a time when it was clear how the scene would be portrayed in the film.

It's not a cop-out if the author didn't know how it was ultimately going to be portrayed. It's a matter of the people making the film and the people writing the book interpreting the same source text differently at that point.

It's the same thing that leads novelizations to often include deleted scenes or other variances from the film (GEN's disposal of Kirk, for instance).

i agree with the nature of your argument : have read many articles where the director or the writer has said yeah we needed this or would have loved that but no way to really film it or depict it: plusalso have to u derstand that run time is an issue watching sometimes forget the cost and effort tonproduce something and somethings have to be left on the editing floor : or you get amdy warhol movies lol

 

[Jedman67]

@T'Bonz, does any star trek episode or movie demonstrate or explicate a mind meld without consent being considered mind-rape? From the occasions we see of Tuvok in VOY, mind melds don't seem to be such a big deal - consensual or otherwise. It simply "is".

 

[F. King Daniel]

TNG "Violations" pretty much sums up entering another's mind without permission in it's name alone.

I'm pretty sure T'Pol called her forced meld "a violation" in one of the follow-up episodes to "Fusion"

 

[Timo]

You're fucking kidding, right? Are you that clueless as to sexual assault as to not recognize one, even a fictional one? Spock went INTO Valeris' mind WITHOUT her consent and violated her. That's a mind rape.

There's no such thing, either in the real world or in Trek dialogue. If you want to hypersexualize a fictional event, I'm not on your side - you do nothing but confuse and undermine the significance of real events of sexual nature, both positive and grossly negative.

Since Spock is male and Valeris female, I guess we could call that incident heterosexual assault in the sense that punching a person's face is an assault. No court sexualizes such a crime in that manner, though.

But since you need validation, I'm a sexual assault survivor. Is that sufficient or does one need to have been a victim of stranger rape in a dark alley to be qualified to speak about rape?

Nobody was speaking about rape here until now. The talk was about Spock probing Valeris' thoughts. Why are you raping my words? Is rape really so trivial to you?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jedi_Master]

The Vulcan mind-meld is depicted in various ways, but most of the depictions from the TOS movie era forward show it to be a deeply personal and spiritual act, one that severely impacted the less experienced and "weaker" partner in the meld. For example, Picard was so impacted by his meld with Sarek that for a time he BECAME Sarek, and was nearly destroyed by the experience. It impacted him so profoundly that he could share that mindset with Spock. The depth of the meld is profound, and it cuts to the core of who a person is, and there is little indication that it can be used surgically or in a way that shields one or both partners from emotional, mental, and spiritual effects. To engage in such behavior with a non-consenting partner would be in every way analogous to sexual assault up to and including rape. To penetrate the very soul of a non-consenting individual, to strip bare their thoughts and to push and probe and repeatedly violate their privacy and personal identity is a terrible act.

The fact that TOS never dwelt on that aspect of mind-melds is not surprising given the era in which it was filmed and the dubious morals of its creator.

But to TNG's credit there was a serious examination of the results and impact of mind-melds - and that discussion and portrayal is what makes the Valeris "interrogation" all the more horrifically disturbing. It is - quite simply - the worst moment in the TOS films and is an unforgivable act on the part of Spock, a large black mark on the otherwise sterling record of the character.

Spock's meld with Pike is a bizarre act, seemingly done out of sheer curiosity and with little thought of what Admiral Pike would desire to feel in his last moments. It is a difficult to justify decision on Spock's part and a good example of the gaping flaws in STID.

 

[Kemaiku]

TNG "Violations" pretty much sums up entering another's mind without permission in it's name alone.

I'm pretty sure T'Pol called her forced meld "a violation" in one of the follow-up episodes to "Fusion"

I watched it the other day and yes. The Vulcans sent to evaluate her basically dismiss the accusations, pack up and leave when it's made clear the mind meld in question was forced.

Although the meld itself is presented as a perversion/amoral act that when two participate, both are equally shamed and forced to resign to prevent a public scandel ,allowances are made for those who are 'violated' by the actions of a melder without consent etc

 

[Timo]

To engage in such behavior with a non-consenting partner would be in every way analogous to sexual assault up to and including rape.

Why the word "sexual" there? Nothing about Picard and Sarek's meld gave a hint of a sexual component to the deed. "In every way analogous" is simply a false statement.

Violations take many forms. Mind meld might be best compared to breaking and entering, as it involves rummaging through one's accumulated life possessions, rather than through a part of their biology. It takes special circumstances to think of one's sexual organs or other orifices as one's life possessions...

I guess what offends me here the most is the implication that a strong man cannot violate a weak woman, but the opposite is eminently okay. Why else would one cling to these ill-fitting sexual analogies but for the fact that it's technically difficult for a woman to rape a man?

Mind melds ever since "Dagger of the Mind" have been described as having the potential to heal and to comfort. The opposite potential has never been suggested - there are no cases of mind melds being used to offensive or destructive intent. That the interrogative use in ST6:TUC causes obvious pain in Valeris is disturbing, but Spock already stated that this was a possibility or even a certainty in the thoroughly positive meld on Simon van Gelder. People scream under the scalpel of a doctor all the time. Issues of consent are largely irrelevant to that facet of the benign or benevolent actions: there may be consent or there may be none, but the pain will be there in either case.

Spock's meld with Pike is a bizarre act, seemingly done out of sheer curiosity and with little thought of what Admiral Pike would desire to feel in his last moments.

It's a fairly typical act for Spock, as in "Requiem for Methuselah" where he feels he has the opportunity to use the powers of the meld for healing. Spock might speculate that Pike would prefer to feel abject horror at his last moment, but would then logically dismiss that thought. Why should a medic withhold morphine from a dying soldier, on the off chance that he wanted to be in great pain?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Franklin]

In ST09, Spock Prime apologized for the feelings Kirk had after the mind meld, saying that emotional transference was a side effect of the meld.

In STID, the mind meld with Pike was a plot point. Spock is transfixed with death. He's lost his mother and six billion compatriots. He seems to be experiencing survivor's guilt and he takes on a reckless act I could never see Spock Prime doing when he enters the volcano. In the volcano, he is ready to die. As a plot point, his meld with Pike allowed him to make the confession of his feelings in the Mudd ship to explain why he chooses not to feel. It also made the death scene with Kirk even more poignant because Spock knew exactly what his friend was going through, and could do nothing to comfort him.

The "messiness" and morality of the Pike meld (I called it a voyeuristic act in an earlier post) was trumped by the plot point it needed to be for Spock's story arc to work. In a way, maybe mind melds are like transporters and other Trek gadgets -- they work as the plot requires. Sadly, that's also probably why the mind meld with Valeris was done. The writers and producers gave appallingly little thought of the brutality of it because the plot needed to move on. Maybe -- egads! -- they thought by that point the audience would think Valeris deserved it. To me, it happened because they wrote themselves into that corner.

For what it's worth, Spock's curiosity also led him to try to mind meld with V'Ger at a turning point in his life. That wasn't a particularly smart move either, but it served the plot.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Analogous:
comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.

 

[Timo]

Agreed with Franklin's evaluation of the meld event - disagreed with the relevance of the above bolding. You claim rape would be "in every way" analogous to this fictional telepathy, when it in fact is a very poor analogy when compared with, say aforementioned burglary. That it would make things clearer is a whopper of a claim when the opposite appears to be happening.

There is always an excuse for poor analogies. There's none for preferring those so that one gets a certain end result.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

Joining minds is a deeply personal and emotionally intimate thing.

Having somebody ransack your house when you're away is nowhere near that level. Sure, you feel some vulnerability when you come home and find that it's been burglarized, but it's clearly nothing like the violation of having some powerful mind force its way into your very being.

Kor

 

[Jedman67]

Burglerly can be pretty traumatizing. Now imagine that instead of someone robbing your house, taking things, they went inside you, an assault on not just your body but the most private areas of your body. Now imagine that the assault went straight into your mind, rummaging around your soul or consciousness, looking at your most personal memories - that'd be pretty traumatic.

Now you could argue that the writers of star trek didn't intend for a mind-meld to be anything more than a non-verbal way of communication, it's been depicted as something much more, and quite harmful when done without consent. Spock should have been arrested and court-martialed for melding with Valeris, novelization notwithstanding.
I'd even agree that my limited watching of TOS and scattered rewatching of TNG, DS9 and VOY didn't leave the impression that melding was such a big deal.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Joining minds is a deeply personal and emotionally intimate thing.

Having somebody ransack your house when you're away is nowhere near that level. Sure, you feel some vulnerability when you come home and find that it's been burglarized, but it's clearly nothing like the violation of having some powerful mind force its way into your very being.

Kor

Correct, I have had my house burglarized, and I can assure you that my reaction and emotional well being after the event in no way matched that of a rape victim.

The key word is "penetration" - a non-consensual mind meld penetrates any mental, emotional, and conscious barriers erected by the involuntary part of the meld, with such penetration requiring varying degrees of force. When such penetration has been made the the voluntary part of the meld pours their feelings, emotions, and consciousness INTO the involuntary part of the meld while simultaneously EXTRACTING the feelings, emotions and consciousness of the involuntary partner.

A consensual mind meld bypasses those barriers because both parties willingly open their feelings, thoughts, emotions, and consciousness (spirituality) to each other FREELY sharing the intensely intimate event.

Remind you of anything?

 

[sojourner]

I would posit that initiating a mindmeld is akin to knocking on someone's door. Whether you force your way in or are let in after that would determine if it's assault.. It would explain Spock's not always getting verbal permission. He receives it at the beginning of the meld. The Meld with Valaris is obviously no such case as exhibited by her reaction.

 

[BillJ]

Digging into someone's innermost thoughts, dreams and nightmares by force, would seem to me to be a tremendous violation. There was no doubt that forced telepathic contact was seen as an a very personal invasion in "Violations", with a control element being part of the equation, forcing someone to bow to the will of another.

It may not be physical. But it is still a type of violation based on control and intimate contact. Not sure how it really isn't a type of rape?*

*All within the confines of a fictional reality.

 

[Franklin]

I would posit that initiating a mindmeld is akin to knocking on someone's door. Whether you force your way in or are let in after that would determine if it's assault.. It would explain Spock's not always getting verbal permission. He receives it at the beginning of the meld. The Meld with Valaris is obviously no such case as exhibited by her reaction.

"Excuse me, but before I do this mind meld I need you to tap on 'agree' on this release form." At least that's probably what the Vulcan lawyers would suggest doing first.

Spock melded with a stunned Romulan in ST09 in order to find out where the jellyfish and Pike were. In that situation would that be considered ok I wonder. Just throwing that out there in general.