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The Vengeance Phasers

an advanced Sea Cat anti-air system
Heh. Calling any version of Sea Cat "advanced" in anything else but years should be a punishable offense...
Well, c'mon, it was the 80s. EVERYTHING was advanced back then.:p

For that matter, Conquerer sunk the Belgrano with a pair of 60-year-old straight-running torpedoes. "Advanced" in this context is a relative term.

It could actually be argued that the Belgrano was a soft target, with no means of defending herself against submarine threats, and was sunk to deter the hard surface targets (the Exocet-packing Type 42s and the at least minimally ASW-capable destroyers) and their carrier protege that were the real threat to RN surface units.

Partially true. It's just that most people overlook the fact that attack submarines are unequivocally lethal to just about everything in the ocean, especially surface ships.

yet another example of ships being as strong as they NEED to be, not as strong as they CAN

Even the Iowa Class would be sunk. Easily. There are no missile proof ships.
What the hell are you talking about? Anti-ship missiles are not designed to penetrate armor. AT ALL. Anything WITH armor is, by definition, missile proof. This was actually one of the key strategic points in World War-II, when American aircraft carriers were found to be vulnerable to Kamikaze attacks because they had omitted armored flight decks. British carriers had included armored decks at the cost of a reduced flight wing and as a result were nearly impervious to Kamikaze attacks. The difference was so dramatic that it is often joked (probably apocryphally) that British captains would warn their crews of Kamikaze attacks with the address "Deck crews, man your brooms!"

Better example: USS Tennessee was hit by Kamikaze planes on three seperate occasions during WWII, in two cases with high explosives going off in the superstructure. NONE of those strikes actually disabled the ship, since none of them penetrated the ship's armor.

You simply don't know what you're talking about. Guided missiles have NO capacity to penetrate shipboard armor, primarily because most surface vessels don't HAVE any armor and there is no reason to design a missile to penetrate it.

Are not designed to penetrate armor protection that nobody uses anymore? Not really that ludicrous in context.

No one uses it BECAUSE it wont stop the missiles.
That's just wrong. They've ceased using it because surface combatants are no longer equipped to directly engage other surface combatants in combat. Their primarily role is defending an aircraft carrier from airborne threats, which requires them to be fast and maneuverable.

Aircraft carriers and some submarines DO carry armor. The former because they are considered to be the primary target of any naval engagement, the latter because they are the primary aggressor in many naval engagements. Put that another way: the only things that carry armor these days are things that aren't cannon fodders, which MOST surface vessels basically are.

It's worth pointing out, however, that some very smart people at West Point wargamed the scenario of a full-scale war against the Soviets a couple of dozen times in the past few years, and more recently against the Chinese. It actually turns out that against any sort of modern opposition, U.S. surface groups would have a depressingly low survival rate and the lack of armored protection means the carrier's escort would be put out of commission relatively quickly.

More than sufficient to handle the Planet Killer or V'Ger.
The planet killer is made out of solid neutronium. Starfleet doesn't have weapons capable of punching through it. The only way to destroy the planet killer is to shove a starship down its throat and blow it up from the inside. Vengeance isn't equipped to do that on its own.

Why would they not be able to pick up the same transmission that the Enterprise did. Are communications not important to combat ships?
Because Enterprise's communications system didn't pick up the signal. AT ALL. It was the science suite that picked up the signal, at a frequency of over a million megahertz and at such a high rate of speed that the entire message lasted only a millisecond. It actually took Spock several minutes to go through his sensor log and find the signal, and then only because he knew for sure that V'ger had been trying to communicate.

For Vengeance to pull this off it would need an advanced set of scientific sensors designed to passively scan every spectrum of the EM frequency and record that data in an archive (this is what the "library computer" on the Enterprise does) and also a science officer clever enough to use the system as effectively as Spock. Even Decker isn't fully up to that task; Marcus' Section 31 flunkies certainly wouldn't be.

But we have no reason to think that ANY starfleet sensors on ANY starfleet ship couldnt have located a radio transmission.

1 million mhz isn't radio. That's a millisecond pulse in the far infrared spectrum. Enterprise is able to identify that signal because it has a frequency-agile infrared telescope on board and a computer that records EVERYTHING the sensors detect. Vengeance, which isn't designed for scientific analysis, does not.

That's normal in warfare. Radar, sonar, stealth and other scientific advances go along way to winning wars, but at the same time, the actual weapons and troops do the fighting.
"Weapons and troops" didn't defeat the Borg. DATA did, with a single command that triggered a self-destruct sequence in the cube.

The existence of the Klingon, Romulan and other known potential military threats justifiy having lots of heavily armed combat ships.
Which the exploration and scientific ships essentially are: they are, as we've shown, PERFECTLY capable of engaging in combat. They are just not built exclusively for it because conventional military threats are actually the LEAST of the Federation's problems.

The fact that they got their asses kicked is reason to IMPROVE combat capability, not write it off as secondary to the scientific efforts.
It's quite the opposite in fact: they need to brush up on their cybernetics acumen in order to more efficiently neutralize the Borg when they come calling. Trying to outgun the Borg is a loosing proposition because they can always bring more firepower to the table than the Federation can, and this is probably true of any enemy they will ever face.

But trying to OUTSMART the Borg is perfectly dooable, especially since you can generally do this before the Borg have actually arrived.

Ha, they didnt have the right weapon
There is no "right weapon" in this situation. Starfleet is not going to out-gun V'ger; that one ship has enough firepower to slag entire planets and make it look easy.

Point being, that weapons and defenses are critical to survival.
Not as critical as scientific knowledge and adaptability, which Enterprise actually proved in this case: We KNOW that Enterprise was able to neutralize V'ger by fulfilling its programming. We do not know for sure that blowing up the ship would have done anything to V'ger's except make it angry (as the novelization implies was the case; this was actually not the first time an enemy had attacked V'ger's core and it had evolved defenses to keep its central brain protected at all costs).

The very advantage the Enterprise had in "screens" allowed it to survive long enough to continue it's mission, and it was V'Gers weapons and shields that made it so dangerous. Naturally, the lesson learned there is to continue improving combat capability. Science is a huge part of that. All agreed.
It's more than that. Science is what SOLVED THE PROBLEM. Enterprise's weapons and defenses weren't all that effective against V'ger; her phasers were next to useless, and her screens wouldn't have been up to a second attack had it hit them.

It remains a fact that a vessel built PURELY FOR COMBAT could not have solved the V'ger problem; it would not have survived long enough to do so had it had the opportunity. Starfleet knows this, which is why they DO NOT build ships purely for combat.

Vengeance itself is actually proof enough of this: in a battle between the "purely for combat" USS Vengeance and the multirole explorer Enterprise, which one of them actually WON that fight?
 
^ If it hadn't been for the Vengeance being infiltrated by Scotty or Khan demanding his crew back the Enterprise probably wouldn't have made it though.
 
^ If it hadn't been for the Vengeance being infiltrated by Scotty or Khan demanding his crew back the Enterprise probably wouldn't have made it though.

If it hadn't been for ALOT of odd things at ALOT of odd times the United Federation of Planets wouldn't even exist.

Stuff like this is why Starfleet doesn't build systems tailor-made to a specific mission role: because they live in a universe where the most successful Starfleeters are just lucky sons-of-bitches who happen to be really quick on their feet.

Starfleet officers are warrior-scientists. They're what happens when you build an army that consists entirely of Mythbusters with Neil DeGrasse Tyson and as a ranking admiral. Sure, they could blow your head off with concentrated gunfire, but they'd much rather tune their stereos to the EXACT sonic frequency that causes your head to fall off on its own. Bonus points if they can deploy their sonic blaster while jumping out of a plane and parachuting into your office to catch you totally off guard.

Starfleet doesn't lack "combat vessels" because they're naive or weak. They lack combat vessels because they're not a bunch of pussies who try to solve all their problems by shooting at them.

And at the end of the day, the Enterprise's "lucky win" against the Vengeance is actually part of a larger pattern. The Enterprise beat the Narada too, in very much the same way; it will continue to come out on top of any purely combat-oriented ship it encounters, mainly because it's the Enterprise, but also because it's a ship crewed by some of the smartest people in the entire Federation. Against those odds, the Enterprise is s good as TEN Dreadnaughts, which is saying something if the crews of the rest of Starfleet are even half as good as Kirk's team.
 
The Vengeance cathing up to and knocking the Enterprise out of warp was one of the most impressive scenes in any of the Star Trek movies. but I agree Kirk and Co. and Picard and Co. defeated bigger ships by using teamwork and intellence.
 
The Vengeance cathing up to and knocking the Enterprise out of warp was one of the most impressive scenes in any of the Star Trek movies. but I agree Kirk and Co. and Picard and Co. defeated bigger ships by using teamwork and intellence.

But that is exactly what happened in Into Darkness. Scotty's skills, Kahn's knowledge, Spock's quick thinking and McCoy's medical team's talent, and Kirk's... commanding presence ;) helped to stop the ship while they had the opportunity.

Things went very sour, of course, when they lost control of the Enterprise and the situation completely.
 
Hmm. Regarding missiles vs. today's naval vessels, Tarek71 is partially correct in that anti-ship missiles of today, and of the past couple of decades, are capable of sinking warships. Or small islands for that matter.

It's just that the western navies never saw the need to develop an anti-ship missile capable of hurting an armored vessel. The Soviet Union had no such vessels, after all! But the NATO navies had big, fat and well-defended hordes of surface ships, in the form of carrier groups - and the preferred Soviet way of dealing with those was the extremely heavy and clumsy tactical nuclear anti-ship missile, whether ship-launched, sub-launched or air-launched. One near-miss would probably have disabled an Iowa one way or another.

However, that was hardly a factor in the disappearance of armor from western warships.

If it hadn't been for ALOT of odd things at ALOT of odd times the United Federation of Planets wouldn't even exist.

On the average, things work out for the Federation's "exploration" ships. But it should not be ignored here that this one time when we saw one of their "combat" ships in action, there was no "on the average" to help us assess the situation.

The Vengeance had certain characteristics, yes. She may have lacked others, yes (although we can't know whether she did). But importantly, she had little or no crew. Lack of manpower was a major reason why Marcus couldn't use (that is, guard and repair) his wonder vessel properly. And it can easily be argued it was the only reason he lost to Kirk, hero cleverness and teamwork or not.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Until the late 1970s there basically were no ship mounted Anti-ship missiles in the US Navy. The job of sinking ships was the realm of the submarine and airplane. All the planned anti-ship missiles in the '50s and '60s have been scrapped, leaving just anti-air missiles. Five inch deck guns had been a hold over due to the nature of "what if they actually do get close to us?" situations. They had been intended to remove all guns from the ships much like they removed all guns from fighters until Vietnam proved that their can still be close in dogfighting even in the supersonic jet age.

By the 1970s the last of the old World War II and Washington Treaty era heavy and light cruisers were retired from US Naval service. A few remained in other counties (like Argentina), but they were still relatively rare. Bringing out the Iowa-class battleships in the 1980s was to counter the large Soviet Kirov-class nuclear cruisers in tonnage with the side effect of providing massive fire support options of the 16 inch guns and on board cruises missiles, which were still in low supply in the fleet. I think only then still being built Ticonderoga-class had Tomahawks aside from the Iowa-class at that point in time.

The Soviet era nuclear cruisers are still around. Pyotr Velikiy is still active and Admiral Nakhimov is suppose to be refit for service in the next three years. Though both ships are 1980s technology. But then so are the Ticonderogas.
 
Hmm. Regarding missiles vs. today's naval vessels, Tarek71 is partially correct in that anti-ship missiles of today, and of the past couple of decades, are capable of sinking warships. Or small islands for that matter.
Well yeah, if you're going to go balls-deep and start a nuclear war just to win a naval engagement.
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But that's not really what we're talking about.

If it hadn't been for ALOT of odd things at ALOT of odd times the United Federation of Planets wouldn't even exist.

On the average, things work out for the Federation's "exploration" ships. But it should not be ignored here that this one time when we saw one of their "combat" ships in action, there was no "on the average" to help us assess the situation.

The Vengeance had certain characteristics, yes. She may have lacked others, yes (although we can't know whether she did). But importantly, she had little or no crew. Lack of manpower was a major reason why Marcus couldn't use (that is, guard and repair) his wonder vessel properly. And it can easily be argued it was the only reason he lost to Kirk, hero cleverness and teamwork or not.
I'll take that idea and run with it: over-reliance on automation is one of the Vengeance's strongest selling points, since it's really just a giant mobile weapons platform that probably uses most of its huge internal space for storing defense systems (shield generators, torpedo magazines, weapons capacitors, etc). Reducing the capacity of some of those weapon systems may be required to increase its crew to a reasonable size (security detail, embarked troops and personnel). That, in turn, requires certain accommodations for crew comfort and sanity on a long-term mission.

Its lack of science capability is also a technical liability in the field and this too can be mitigated at the cost of some of its extraneous tactical capability, especially if this means sacrificing some of its automation features. Better sensors would certainly help, but far more importantly, some kind of sophisticated SIGINT facility would fit pretty well on a ship so heavily emphasized for combat.

These are, at the end of the day, modifications that would make the Vengeance more useful to the Federation than it is now. But it still occurs to me that a more balanced multirole platform like the Enterprise is ALREADY designed to fill all of those roles and would probably do it faster and more efficiently.

Put simply: the only real way to convert Vengeance into a proper starship would be to basically turn it into a Giant Enterprise. The finished product would probably wind up being the Abramsverse version of the Enterprise-D.
 
USS Vengeance and her type are purpose built warships designed to do one thing very well. Destroy Klingon warships. It might excel at that task, but would be less useful in other tasks that don't involve blowing up ships or perhaps orbital bombardment.

That is not Starfleet's role in the Federation though. So most ship are not built to do that specific task, as Starfleet is not designed fight a war, but to prevent a war from starting.
 
Vengeance seems almost like something designed by an engineer who visited multiple universes and took the best aspects from the timelines of each.
 
Vengeance seems almost like something designed by an engineer who visited multiple universes and took the best aspects from the timelines of each.

Strictly speaking (and again, using the IDW series as background) it was designed by two groups of people working (somewhat) in parallel:

1) The Starfleet engineers who saw the Narada in action and realized that the Klingons were reverse engineering the Narada's technology to upgrade their fleet

2) Khan, who actually has experience designing and operating weapon systems in combat and has an idea of what sort of solutions will work and what sort of solutions are just wishful thinking.

All in all, Vengeance is a starship designed by 23rd century jingoists and then upgraded by a 21st century war criminal. It's five year mission: to destroy strange new worlds, to force recon new life forms and new civilizations, to boldly conquer what no man has conquer before.
 
You know the thing about paranoid people?

They are the ones who are actually causing the situation and escalating things.

Not the people they are paranoid about.
 
Well, that is a good description of Internet message board behaviour. The first to scream 'victim!' is usually the one being the biggest ass.

I'm not sure what it's got to do with the Vengeance design? That description doesn't really fit Khan ( the designer), in this film at least. Marcus maybe, but the Klingons generally do itch to take over Federation worlds and the Federation really did recently get the pulp beaten out them. Marcus problem wasnt unfounded paranoia, but extremism and McCarthy-ing the shit out of the situation.
 
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Well, that is a good description of Internet message board behaviour. The first to scream 'victim!' is usually the one being the biggest ass.

I'm not sure what it's got to do with the Vengeance design? That description doesn't really fit Khan ( the designer), in this film at least. Marcus maybe, but the Klingons generally do itch to take over Federation worlds and the Federation really did recently get the pulp beaten out them. Marcus problem wasnt unfounded paranoia, but extremism and McCarthy-ing the shit out of the situation.

The Admiral who had Khan design the Vengeance was very paranoid over a war with the Klingon Empire. That's why he had it designed in the first place, because he thought the Federation would lose against them.
 
No, he wasn't.

'Paranoia' involves a degree of schizophrenia or hallucinations. To put it bluntly - Marcus would have to be completely wrong that a) The Klingons are itching for war with the Feds, and b) that they have a chance of winning. His fears would have to be based on something that's not real.

The Prime Universe shows that's not the case. The Klingon Empire is nearly always looking to expand when they think they can get away with it, members of their upper class would have absolutely no problem going to war with the Feds at the first given opportunity, and they can be violently genocidal. Also (as mentioned up thread), if you read the comics then the Klingons are also reverse-engineering the Narada - tech the Federation was proven to be pretty much helpless against, and which severely weakened their defences and allies not a year before.

So yes, Marcus had good grounds to be concerned about the Klingons and other Nero-level threats.

The problem was he took those fears, and reacted in the worst possible way.
 
No, he wasn't.

'Paranoia' involves a degree of schizophrenia or hallucinations. To put it bluntly - Marcus would have to be completely wrong that a) The Klingons are itching for war with the Feds, and b) that they have a chance of winning. His fears would have to be based on something that's not real.

The Prime Universe shows that's not the case. The Klingon Empire is nearly always looking to expand when they think they can get away with it, members of their upper class would have absolutely no problem going to war with the Feds at the first given opportunity, and they can be violently genocidal. Also (as mentioned up thread), if you read the comics then the Klingons are also reverse-engineering the Narada - tech the Federation was proven to be pretty much helpless against, and which severely weakened their defences and allies not a year before.

So yes, Marcus had good grounds to be concerned about the Klingons and other Nero-level threats.

The problem was he took those fears, and reacted in the worst possible way.

The real problem was that he took his fears and tried to make them into a reality. He tried to start the war he feared would come.
 
No argument there. Kirk had the same attitude in Errand of Mercy (war is inevitable), but he a) got some sense knocked into him, and b) is the sort of person who has some self perception...eventually.

My original question wasn't answered. Even if Marcus was a bona fied, explicitly established in-universe as a paranoid schizophrenic, what did that have to do with the rest of the conversation? That is, the design of the Vengeance?

Someone put forward to me that the design of the saucer leaves the budge exposed to attack from above and below, and that's a display of Khans previously established 2D thinking. I'm a little cynical about that (the bridges were always ridiculously vulnerable), but if that was intended to be the case, wouldn't that suggest Khan was involved in a bit more than just the ships offensive capabilities?
 
No argument there. Kirk had the same attitude in Errand of Mercy (war is inevitable), but he a) got some sense knocked into him, and b) is the sort of person who has some self perception...eventually.

My original question wasn't answered. Even if Marcus was a bona fied, explicitly established in-universe as a paranoid schizophrenic, what did that have to do with the rest of the conversation? That is, the design of the Vengeance?

Someone put forward to me that the design of the saucer leaves the budge exposed to attack from above and below, and that's a display of Khans previously established 2D thinking. I'm a little cynical about that (the bridges were always ridiculously vulnerable), but if that was intended to be the case, wouldn't that suggest Khan was involved in a bit more than just the ships offensive capabilities?

Whatever in-universe explanations are given for this or that, the bridge-on-top is such a staple of Trek-design that it'll never go away, no matter how silly it would be in the real world. :)
 
Or he hoped to be aboard Vengeance when she launched, somewhere safely deep in the secondary hull near the automation control "monitoring" it.

Designs a bridge where the minimal crew will all be housed, waits for it to be targeted, then kills the guards and takes over.
 
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