Spoilers The Vanquishers grade and discussion thread

[Yminale]

Hyperbole much?

I watched the last season of Game of Thrones, the previous record holder and at least it made some sense. This whole season of Doctor Who was a waste of time. I can summerize this season like this.

Crazy stuff happens, Sontarrans, Weeping Angel. The Doctor shouts a lot and waves the sonic screwdriver like a madwoman. The End.

 

[Caretaker]

Watching this episode is the closest thing to being extremely drunk without actually drinking.

I actually started watching the episode last night but had to stop because it was so jarring. All the jump cuts in the edit, the Doctor splitting herself into 3 and the overly complicated, messy plot were too much. I finished it today. I didn't dislike the episode but it is very unsatisfying and all over the place. It's definitely not a friendly episode for a general audience.

With all that said, I did watch every episode. It's more than I can say of the previous two seasons.

Even the three versions of reality on Ordinary Joe were easier to keep track of.

 

[The Wormhole]

4. The way the Doctor seemed to "connect the dots" and wonder if she and Karvanista were possibly more than just "comrades in arms" during their tenure with Division... Mercy, I wonder when the first "Rule 34" illustrations of Jo Martin Doctor and Karvanista will start appearing on the net?! You know it's gonna' happen!

Doggy style indeed.

How did the Sontarans kill them so quickly. Remember Sontaran have been shown to be both stupid and poor shots.

Eh? I know the modern era has had a tendency to turn the Sontarans into comic relief (though in its defense, Dan Starkey does excel as a funny Sontaran) but I was never under the impression the Sontarans were intentionally stupid or terrible marksmen.

Again, 'Cyberwoman'.

I know everyone tends to hate on Cyberwoman as one of the worst of the entire Doctor Who franchise, and I will agree the Cyberwoman outfit was just awful. Indeed the outfit alone summarizes the flaw of Torchwood's first season, in that it seemed to confuse being grown up with meaning the same thing as show some tits. However, terrible outfit aside, I found the episode itself is nowhere near as bad as its reputation, and I think had it not been for the outfit, the episode probably wouldn't be hated as much as it is. If anything, it probably would have just been forgotten, along with much the rest of Torchwood's first season.

He left L&A after the first series, did three seasons of Broadchurch, would have left Camelot even if it had had a second season, and left Torchwood after two seasons. Of course who knows if those were his decisions or the higher ups?

In the case of Torchwood, I got the impression RTD decided to step in for Children of Earth as a combination of having extra time because of Doctor Who's 2009 gap year and the intention of ending Torchwood with Children of Earth.

Has anyone mentioned how apparently, as of this weekend, the entire universe has been all but destroyed by the flux, which had apparently had too much to eat by the time it got to earth where it was stopped by eating Daleks and cybermen and getting shut into a humanoid shaped Tardis. So… there is nowhere in space and time for the doctor to go post December 5th 2021.

Yeah, that does seem to be the case. Which I'm sure will be conveniently ignored in future episodes. Especially once RTD takes over again.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Nup a second viewing didn't improve my opinion of this one, in fact it feels worse. What a mess?
Most of the universe gone should have major, I mean MAJOR non rectifiable consequences but by the next series all that will be forgotten or handwaved over. Fucking stupid story decision

 

[diankra]

The problem I have with that is 'All of them?' They were individuals, they'd react differently. Even if it was done by over-riding the ship systems, some would have grabbed an oxygen mask long enough to cope.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The problem I have with that is 'All of them?' They were individuals, they'd react differently. Even if it was done by over-riding the ship systems, some would have grabbed an oxygen mask long enough to cope.

Unless it was a bluff

 

[diankra]

Doggy style indeed.

Eh? I know the modern era has had a tendency to turn the Sontarans into comic relief (though in its defense, Dan Starkey does excel as a funny Sontaran) but I was never under the impression the Sontarans were intentionally stupid or terrible marksmen.

I know everyone tends to hate on Cyberwoman as one of the worst of the entire Doctor Who franchise, and I will agree the Cyberwoman outfit was just awful. Indeed the outfit alone summarizes the flaw of Torchwood's first season, in that it seemed to confuse being grown up with meaning the same thing as show some tits. However, terrible outfit aside, I found the episode itself is nowhere near as bad as its reputation, and I think had it not been for the outfit, the episode probably wouldn't be hated as much as it is. If anything, it probably would have just been forgotten, along with much the rest of Torchwood's first season.

In the case of Torchwood, I got the impression RTD decided to step in for Children of Earth as a combination of having extra time because of Doctor Who's 2009 gap year and the intention of ending Torchwood with Children of Earth.

Yeah, that does seem to be the case. Which I'm sure will be conveniently ignored in future episodes. Especially once RTD takes over again.

Comment that Lis Sladen laughed at: "Torchwood, made for adults by 12 year olds; SJA, made for 12 year old by adults."

 

[diankra]

I'm pretty sure anyone who knows anything about this franchise knew the Doctor wasn't going to get her memories back.

Meh, the Daleks always survive genocide, and it need not be explained how anymore than the Master always surviving death.

Chibnall was a good writer on Torchwood, particularly in the second season when he focused more on character oriented stories, and Broadchurch was absolutely amazing. For some reason during his term running Doctor Who he's avoided the character stuff he does so well to instead focus on action and grand epic scope stuff he's rather poor at.

Interesting interview with Chris on Front Row about Broadchurch: he wrote it for himself after a bad time in the States, not expecting it to sell, just wanting to prove himself to himself.
When he just writes, he can be very good, but as a writer for hire... Who, Torchwood, Broadchurch 2 and 3...

 

[diankra]

This x 1000

Didn't Good Fight do that?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Nup a second viewing didn't improve my opinion of this one, in fact it feels worse. What a mess?

I thought about it, thinking maybe it would be better watching again knowing some stuff ahead of time, try to piece it all together and chase all the plot threads and I came to the conclusion that I have a really big backlog of a lot of stuff I've haven't seen, much of which seems worthy, and deleted them all off the DVR.

 

[Evil Robert]

Maxine Alderton is perhaps the main aspect of Chibnall's era that I really want RTD to retain (tied with Jo Martin who I really want to see again but Alderton might be an easier ask). I've not idea if she's like to be a showrunner some day, some writers are perfectly happy just writing after all, but she's been a shining light these last few years. The Haunting of Villa Diodati is stand out my favourite episode of the Whittaker era, even before we get to Village of the Angels. Even if it's just one episode a year I hope we haven't seen the last of her.

True that she has to want it! Lol

I can only hope she does want to step up!

I know he has had good experience already - Soaps can be ridiculously complex to write for with their complex connections, storylines and history and that they're five a week as opposed to a dozen a year!

On top of that, Good writing skills!

I really do hope she stays on or at least gets dangled a really juicy offer for her own stories!

 

[Mr Awe]

Poor writing is poor writing, whoever is responsible for it. That's my "bias" (and, it would seem, the "bias" of others in this thread). The episode worked for you and that's fine, but the out-of-hand dismissal of other people's opinions as the product of "bias" and nothing else is ridiculous. Still, I suppose "bias" is an improvement of sorts on "hater".

I'm definitely biased. I'm biased in wanting to enjoy Doctor Who. I've been watching it since 1980 and, when I see good DW, I'll be the first to praise it regardless of who is making it. I want it to be good. I try to see the good in it. I go in assuming that I will like at least something about it. This season, I enjoyed Jodie's performance greatly, the Sontarans, the Angels, and many of the guest cast throughout this series. I thought Dan was a nice addition as companion. Yaz had more to do.

However, like others in this thread, I'm also biased against bad writing. Unfortunately, portions of this series were marred by that problem. But it was a marked improvement over that past several.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm definitely biased. I'm biased in wanting to enjoy Doctor Who. I've been watching it since 1980 and, when I see good DW, I'll be the first to praise it regardless of who is making it. I want it to be good. I try to see the good in it. I go in assuming that I will like at least something about it. This season, I enjoyed Jodie's performance greatly, the Sontarans, the Angels, and many of the guest cast throughout this series. I thought Dan was a nice addition as companion. Yaz had more to do.

However, like others in this thread, I'm also biased against bad writing. Unfortunately, portions of this series were marred by that problem. But it was a marked improvement over that past several.

Yup, precisely. It's perfectly possible to love certain parts of this series and hate other parts of it, but that doesn't make you, me, or anyone else who has these nuanced opinions about the series "haters" just for criticizing elements that are indeed worthy of criticism. No need for absolutes here.

 

[JRoss]

Well, regardless of the fact that it wasn't perfect, it's still the best Dr. Who finale that I can recall since Tennant's first season.

Overall, I think Flux was a win. Now why couldn't Chibby have done it at this quality throughout?

 

[Orac Zen]

Didn't Good Fight do that?

Yes. Absolutely brilliantly.

Not sure the Who episode qualifies.

 

[cultcross]

A very generous score of 4. Whole thing was a total mess, I spent most of it not knowing what the hell was going on or why it matters, and the bits I did understand focused on more Timeless Child memory nonsense instead of half the universe getting destroyed. Which unless I missed it, was not resolved. Happy happy let's go exploring ending completely off key given the Doctor had arguably just suffered her greatest defeat since the time war, possibly her greatest ever.

"Were you my companion?" I don't care. We never saw that, we're not invested, it's just a title, like were you my barber? Nobody cares about these lost memories. Nobody.

The whole 'let's get lots of matter to offset the antimatter' thing was so ridiculous I laughed. This thing can destroy planets, and the mass of some spaceships is going to stop it? I'm really hoping I misunderstood the intent there, because it was stupid.

The three Doctors thing - why? How? Oh who cares, it's reversed. How exactly does the Doctor freeze people with her sonic and why hasn't she always done that?

The only points this episode gets (a theme from the season as a whole actually) are from the Yaz storyline and the while idea of the tunnels with the doors to different time periods. That bit was fine.

What was the point of the two lovers finding each other? How did that tie into the main story at all? And UNIT/the serpent guy for that matter. And UNIT has had a fully functioning TARDIS in their basement the entire run of the series until they knew somehow this was the moment to bring it out? Huh?

What a total cluster. This season is one great episode about Angels, a half decent one about Sontarans and a lot of incomprehensible frantic gibberish.

RTD, you can't get back fast enough.

 

[dupersuper]

it's still the best Dr. Who finale that I can recall since Tennant's first season.

...Really????

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Well, regardless of the fact that it wasn't perfect, it's still the best Dr. Who finale that I can recall since Tennant's first season.

Wow.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

So I wonder if they throw away the fob watch, the Doctor clearly told the TARDIS to dump it deep in her innards where she can't find it so she doesn't want to open it ever.

 

[jaime]

If Doctor Who had ended forever with The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang, it would have been a good ending. If it had ended with Capaldi drifting dead in space after his finale, it would have worked fine, if a little butter sweet. Both better finales than this. TUAT *hand wiggles* not so much.

I do keep feeling that The Doctor that had been around for all those years died with ‘Twelve/Fourteen/One’ and we very rarely see the character in this Doctor. When we do, it is swiftly undone. It’s just badly written overall.
I’m just glad it turned out some of the baddies actually were baddies this season, as opposed to the habitual ‘all this race are baddies - oh fuck they’re not after all’ that has been a hallmark. Though that is thin gruel, when they have also been incredibly badly done, and really shouldn’t be looked at too closely before we start to think the Doctor is some kind of bigot who is now being proved right.
And operation corner shop? Really?