Spoilers The Vanquishers grade and discussion thread

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Well I'm glad that this season doesn't seem to be going to spill over into the NYD special so I can just forget it ever happened - as seems to be the case on Earth, at least in Liverpool. Did the Flux destroy most of the universe and half the solar system? No-one seems to have noticed or even care. Mach's principle states that local physical laws are determined by the large-scale structure of the universe. Taking most of that universe away should probably screw up the laws of physics as we know them, most noticeably regarding inertia.

ETA: I gave the episode a 6, which seems over generous, but I think I was just glad it was over.

 

[Pindar]

A lot of great companions and some pointless villains.
I though the flux had already destroyed everything apart from Earth with its Lupari shield. Whe the swarm said they could rewind the flux to run it over and over I thought that was what the doctor would do.

I presume Prentiss will be back in a special otherwise what a waste of time his thread was.

I didn't hate it and it looked fantastic,I enjoyed it a lot more than this weeks Discovery episode.

The whole series was hit and miss but the Sontarans were consistantly fantastic.

 

[Redfern]

So, which actor played the "chocoholic" Sontaran? He wasn't Starkey was he? A missed opportunity could have been his sampling some jelly babies, only to find them repulsive, and the Doctor responding, "I don't trust anybody who hates jelly babies," or something to that effect.

 

[David cgc]

As much as I don't want to be that guy who just posts to someone else's review, I'm going to, because at least it's not a YouTube video. That, and Darren Mooney is pretty much always right on the money as far as my opinion of Doctor Who is concerned.

I feel like the quick summation is actually in the comments, that Chibnall's era is what people who don't watch Doctor Who think Doctor Who is like. Mooney raises the point that, where earlier eras of the revival had explorations of why the Doctor calls themself "the Doctor," and whether that continues to apply when the Doctor is a big action adventure hero, this episode just sums it up as, "You want to keep people alive." The alternative being presented being pointless nihilism even by nihilism's standards. It was a parody of a Doctor Who big-ideas conversation. Davros fantasizing about everyone dying of an incurable plague so long as he got the ego-trip of being the person to release it was a more understandable and consistent viewpoint.

And never mind Chibnall's consistent guardian-izing of the Doctor as someone who fights for balance, and systems, and the status quo, where Azure and Swarm were advocating for "change," apparently in the sense that everything being dead is, in fact, different from not quite everything being dead. The Doctor isn't that kind of hero. They don't protect the city from bad people hitting people where they live, the Doctor goes out and finds problems and then makes them right. The status quo at the beginning of a Doctor Who story should be all kinds of screwed up, not something to be preserved.

 

[Starkers]

As much as I don't want to be that guy who just posts to someone else's review, I'm going to, because at least it's not a YouTube video. That, and Darren Mooney is pretty much always right on the money as far as my opinion of Doctor Who is concerned.

I can't argue with most of that. I'd thought the death of Jericho very much reflected the death of Ko Sharmus in The Timeless Children, though fair dos Jericho was a much more well rounded character. I still don't know why he had to die? Did Chibnall just figure someone had to die and threw a ten sided dice to decide who?

 

[Seven of Five]

Maybe a 7 this week. The action was good and there were a lot of funny moments, but the conclusion of the characters arcs was all a bit straightforward.

Aside from that of the Doctor, who has locked the watch deep in the tardis.

The three doctors had great energy in the episode.

 

[captainkirk]

The number one thing that frustrates me about Chibnall's writing is when I can see good ideas that are buried under way too much random junk.

After thinking about this season I came up with my own idea on how to do this story. Basically, I'd keep Swarm, the Flux, and the Doctor's search for her memories, but throw out basically everything else. I'd have her learn that Swarm is someone she fought as the Fugitive Doctor and he's a threat to the multiverse. Fugitive Doctor was the one who designed the Flux as a last-resort weapon to stop him in case he can't be captured. Now that he's escaped, the Division has activated it to kill him before he becomes powerful enough to threaten them.

Now the Doctor has to go on a quest to find her memories which contain the key to stopping the Flux, but if she gets them back, she worries about who she might become, since her past incarnation was someone who designed a weapon to end the universe.

Anyway, that's just an idea that I think would be better. Both by being more streamlined and by being more character-focused.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I agree that Chibnall was trying to pull off something epic and grandiose along the lines of Marvel Avengers Infinity War and Endgame but he just doesn't have the writing ability. I also agree that throwing out the unnecessary story elements and being more focussed would have been much better - even when stretched out over six episodes.

 

[Jax]

What a jumbled mess of a ending. The lack of explanation behind so much of the story and some of the pointless side stories and characters like the Grand Serpent. Didn't the Flux destroy much of the Universe along the way, so is it repaired or still gone? The Division storyline, The Time Lords/Timeless Child, The weird Flux aliens ??? just no real substance at the end of the day.

It was chaotic - which is the theme for this entire era of Doctor Who.

I cannot wait for this era to be over and RTD to return.

PS - All Daleks blown up by the Flux but there back in the next preview

Oh yeh the Doctor was wilfully pretty ok with genocide of 3 races.

 

[Orac Zen]

Pretty much every post in this thread reads as anti-Chibnall bias, and it's rather sad and simultaneously illuminating.

What's "sad and illuminating" about people having a different opinion?

Poor writing is poor writing, whoever is responsible for it. That's my "bias" (and, it would seem, the "bias" of others in this thread). The episode worked for you and that's fine, but the out-of-hand dismissal of other people's opinions as the product of "bias" and nothing else is ridiculous. Still, I suppose "bias" is an improvement of sorts on "hater".

 

[Mr Awe]

How did the Sontarans wipe out all the Lupari? We've seen that one Lupari can beat several Sontarans, so some must win the fight.

Mysteriously the Sontarans killed all the Lupari while their ships were 100% intact. Very strange. Particularly when you consider that the Lupari were aware of the Sontaran's presence and on high alert.

 

[Mr Awe]

The Rogue Angel, I can't recall is Tectuen said something about it? Ah Tectuen. "Yes Doctor it is I, your adoptive mother who you have no memory of and no relationship to and now I'm going to destroy the universe and...ugh I'm dead" Utterly pointless.

I agree with your points. And I find this one to be true but also most puzzling. There seems to be so much drama potential in this angle. The relationship between the Doctor and Tecteun, uncovered secrets and memories, etc. And Chibnall seemed to go to great lengths to set this up. Starting with Timeless Child and throughout this season. There were hints of Division secrets and unfinished business that Jo's Doctor had with them that Jodie's would finish. Etc. It seems like there's a lot to mine in that vein.

And while I don't want all of the secrets revealed, it seems like if you go down that path, you're pretty much obligated to reveal something meaningful, that'll have a real impact. Enough to be interesting but yet keeping enough hidden to retain the mystery. I thought we'd actually go into the Doctor's memory house. Not explore the whole house, but a room. Or the lobby. A closet. Or something.

That's a tough balance and ultimately Chibnall wasn't up to the task.

And, if you don't want to do that, don't go to so much trouble to set it all up with a story that mixes together the past lives of the Doctor, past forgotten relationships (a trifecta of family, companion, and adversaries), secret histories, and a mysterious memory house!

That all said, I'm kind of glad it amounted to nothing. It's easier to forget it. I'd much rather build up mysteries going forward that the Doctor can actually discover and resolve. Rather than past secrets that are told to her.

 

[Orac Zen]

Mysteriously the Sontarans killed all the Lupari while their ships were 100% intact. Very strange. Particularly when you consider that the Lupari were aware of the Sontaran's presence and on high alert.

Indeed. How did the Sontarans manage to simultaneously space every Lupari from their own ships, anyway? Very convenient. Why not use that...ability to eliminate your enemies, rather than make elaborate plans with Flux and UNIT and "grand serpents" and whatever?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Pretty much every post in this thread reads as anti-Chibnall bias, and it's rather sad and simultaneously illuminating.

Every plot thread that was unspooled in The Halloween Apocalypse and over the succeeding four episodes was tied up with this episode (something that I genuinely didn't think was going to happen but am happy to have been wrong about).

The only legitimate issues with the story as a whole are the anticlimax of the Doctor not getting her memories back and the incongruity of every Dalek being destroyed by the Flux just one episode before a story that features them (and the latter is only an issue because it unnecessarily creates a story hole that now has to be filled).

It's ironic that the one thing you think is a "legitimate issue" is one of the few things I (and several others in this thread) actually like about this episode (I mean specifically The Doctor not looking at her old memories).

But I guess it doesn't really matter since you're so hard pressed to call everyone haters who have a dissenting opinion about Chibnall, even those who are more supportive of him than others (such as myself). What a weird hill to die on.

Anyways, everything Starkers said to you in response largely sums up my reasonable criticisms of the series.

But I'll sat the the one thing I did love with the episode - the Doctor shamelessly flirting with herself! That was solid gold.

I think I forgot to mention this in my review but I also really loved that. We still got the classic bickering trope but with the added twist of some shameless flirting, too!

 

[RevdKathy]

If the daleks are back at New Year apparently unharmed, could the lupari be too, please? They are such good boys and girls!

 

[JoeZhang]

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Don't forget the Lupari, well excepting one of them.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Indeed. How did the Sontarans manage to simultaneously space every Lupari from their own ships, anyway? Very convenient. Why not use that...ability to eliminate your enemies, rather than make elaborate plans with Flux and UNIT and "grand serpents" and whatever?

The Grand Serpent provided them with a 1995 Macbook to upload a virus to the Lupari fleet.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I just realised Dan's house is still probably shrunk so he's homeless. I guess he has to go with the Doctor because he'd rather not crash at his parents'.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

The number one thing that frustrates me about Chibnall's writing is when I can see good ideas that are buried under way too much random junk.

After thinking about this season I came up with my own idea on how to do this story. Basically, I'd keep Swarm, the Flux, and the Doctor's search for her memories, but throw out basically everything else. I'd have her learn that Swarm is someone she fought as the Fugitive Doctor and he's a threat to the multiverse. Fugitive Doctor was the one who designed the Flux as a last-resort weapon to stop him in case he can't be captured. Now that he's escaped, the Division has activated it to kill him before he becomes powerful enough to threaten them.

Now the Doctor has to go on a quest to find her memories which contain the key to stopping the Flux, but if she gets them back, she worries about who she might become, since her past incarnation was someone who designed a weapon to end the universe.

Anyway, that's just an idea that I think would be better. Both by being more streamlined and by being more character-focused.

See even that is better then the shit we got. I loved the production / the design and some parts of the story but in the end it kind of stank like a pile or random things slapped together that only loosely form a story. That's why the final episode is only worth 5/10 and that's only for the production and look.

I do hope we get Claire back, I thought she was another incarnation of Clara.