Spoilers The Vanquishers grade and discussion thread

[Emperor-Tiberius]

From Tecteun's perspective, yes, but The Doctor barely knows her because of her stolen memories.

But still, shouldn't there had been a deeply subconscious feeling of loss? Even fleeting? I'm not exactly asking for it (the sooner I forget about Tecteun, the better), but story-wise with what's been presented, a kind of acknowledgement should have been include I felt.

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

But still, shouldn't there had been a deeply subconscious feeling of loss? Even fleeting? I'm not exactly asking for it (the sooner I forget about Tecteun, the better), but story-wise with what's been presented, a kind of acknowledgement should have been include I felt.

Sure but without a body or clunky dialogue, that would've been difficult to convey especially considering The Doctor's lack of invested connection.

 

[SolarisOne]

I am SO glad Chibnall is headed out the door. That's it. That's my review.

 

[JoeZhang]

That was a train wreck - absolute garbage from start to end - one of the worst episodes I have ever seen.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Dr Who Flux finale... Good fun, plenty of action and humour, some stunning visuals. Loved the three 13s, I think overall the Sontarans came out of the series best - it's easily the best Sontaran story, if nothing else. But sadly it isn't much else- it all ended a little too easily, Bel and Vinder really ended up just being two one-story guest stars, there's random offscreen genocide, time is an entity? And all the arc stuff just got the can kicked down the road (or left for future showrunners, we'll probably know in the final story) and again a season just turns out to be foreshadowing/teasing for the still-several-stories-off regeneration. Meh.

Chibnall also either has no idea how antimatter reacts to matter (clue- they explode, you'd just create a bigger bang) or is just deliberately deliberately echoing the Hartnell era Terry Nation science.

Anyway, as spectacular and fun as it was eye-rollingly fustrating, so I choose to view it less as a failed deep lore fandom fanwank epic, and more as the best ever Sontaran story.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I haven't read any opinions yet. My initial thoughts:

Well, that was ... kind of fun, in a throw-everything-at-us-to-keep-us-from-stopping-and thinking kind of way. Plotholes? What plotholes? Also, point-, brain- and soulless.

At one point, when most of the heroes were in the tardis and the Doctors gave their instructions, that scene only confirmed for me that at least half of them were superfluous. I liked Vinder, Bel and Di, but I don't care for them. No offense to the actors, they were fine. Almost like a backdoor pilot for a new show.. So I cracked up when Bel, Vinder and Carvinista took off together. Who knows, RTD has been known to want a Marvel-esque Whoniverse. It would suck for me, personally, if they used Jodie's last season for that.

Same with the villains, I could have done without the Grand Serpent at the very least.

Oh, and Chibbers, please stop with the queerbaiting, it sucks.

So Carvinista was once a companion, but still tried to kill the Doctor several times? Those abandonment issues must run deep. Poor puppy.

Somehwere, buried beneath all the mindless plot and crcumstance of Flux, there was a great show (that could have been made). But hey, you got too much setup and not enough time? Just triple your protagonist! (Admittedly, that was a neat idea.)

Loved Jericho's performance.

Oh well. I will miss Jodie (after the specials). The showrunner, not so much.

tl;dr: It could have been far worse, I guess.

ETA: I must agree I'd rather seen Jericho as the new companion than Dan. No offense to Bishop.

Not sure if I feel generous enough for a 7, maybe I'll rewatch.

 

[diankra]

What are Swarm and Azure? He points out that the names are rough translations that will do, but there's no follow-up on that.

 

[CaptainWacky]

So, umm, I'll freely admit that I wasn't paying much attention by the end...but did they actually undo all the damage done by The Flux? Because if they did, I must have missed it. Wasn't a lot of the universe destroyed? Isn't that kind of a big deal? Then again, Carvinista's entire race were wiped out offscreen and it was only mentioned like twice afterwards.

And yeah what the heck was with Diane at the end. It was like she'd forgotten everything that happened?

I enjoyed the performances from Swarm and Azure's actors, but what even were they? What even is anything.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

What are Swarm and Azure? He points out that the names are rough translations that will do, but there's no follow-up on that.

Just baddies from the pre-Hartnell Doctor's Division days. I guess too much info about them would've given us too much info on those Doctors, esp Ruth.

I'm still trying to understand WTH the Grand Serpent was. A form of Swarm? I could've sworn it was the same actor playing both, but apparently not.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

So, umm, I'll freely admit that I wasn't paying much attention by the end...but did they actually undo all the damage done by The Flux? Because if they did, I must have missed it. Wasn't a lot of the universe destroyed? Isn't that kind of a big deal?

I was going to ask that, too. So... I guess not?

Then again, Carvinista's entire race were wiped out offscreen and it was only mentioned like twice afterwards.

And yeah what the heck was with Diane at the end. It was like she'd forgotten everything that happened?

Yeah, that was a cheap way to make Dan rejoin the TARDIS. I mean, they could have had her say she was traumatized and needs time or something. I bet at the end of the specials or whenever Dan leaves the TARDIS, we'll learn she's changed her mind.

I enjoyed the performances from Swarm and Azure's actors, but what even were they? What even is anything.

Apparently just some villains from the Doctor's unknown past, who wanted revenge, and see the universe destroyed, and also reign in hell, and liked to monologue a lot before they went poof.

 

[Anson Mount Seleya]

Well, that was...a season. This episode, like much of this season was frantic and all over the place. And in the end, we don't really get satisfactory answers for any of the questions raised this season. Who or what are Azure and Swarm? Who or what was the Grand Serpent and what exactly was he trying to accomplish?

I got to be honest, this left me feeling mostly, apathetic. It's not the worse I've seen but in the end, this is six weeks which didn't really enthrall me too much aside from the Sontaran and Weeping Angel episodes despite a promising start. It really comes down to an attempt of trying to do a melting pot of modern Who's most notable elements. Particularly the manic nature and grand scope of RTD's era, with the convoluted timey-wimey nature of Moffat's, with very little of Chibnall's own identity in there that just came off as a bit of a mess really.

 

[Mr Awe]

Ugh. I gave it a 6. Disjointed. It just left me cold at the end. A total lack of emotional resonance.

It just didn't seem to build to anything. Lots of it seemed like random scenes put together. And I don't mean the trisected stuff.

So, Diane become a real master of Passenger technology offscreen. Convenient. And what's the deal with her being all pissed off at Dan?!

Did I miss something? How did the Sontaran's kill all Lupari but got their ships intact?

Don't buy the Doctor not wanting to access the memories after all the trouble she went through to get them.

Jo Martin was wasted this season.

The weird house thing appearing earlier in the season makes no sense now. It's a visual metaphor for her memories, but it's not like showing it in the 2nd episode was warranted.

So, the Universe was battered, much destroyed down to its foundations in some areas, but it's just left as it was. Doctor doesn't seem too concerned about it.

Were the weird doors appearing in the TARDIS resolved? Was that just something to do with the Flux? Or did I miss something?

Seems like there was an odd combination of things being raised early in the series and then dropped. As a whole, the series didn't gel.

 

[diankra]

Ugh. I gave it a 6. Disjointed. It just left me cold at the end. A total lack of emotional resonance.

It just didn't seem to build to anything. Lots of it seemed like random scenes put together. And I don't mean the trisected stuff.

So, Diane become a real master of Passenger technology offscreen. Convenient. And what's the deal with her being all pissed off at Dan?!

Did I miss something? How were every single Lupari killed but their ship left intact?

Don't buy the Doctor not wanting to access the memories after all the trouble she went through to get them.

Jo Martin was wasted this season.

The weird house thing appearing earlier in the season makes no sense now. It's a visual metaphor for her memories, but it's not like showing it in the 2nd episode was warranted.

So, the Universe was battered, much destroyed down to its foundations in some areas, but it's just left as it was. Doctor doesn't seem too concerned about it.

Were the weird doors appearing in the TARDIS resolved? Was that just something to do with the Flux? Or did I miss something?

Seems like there was an odd combination of things being raised early in the series and then dropped. As a whole, the series didn't gel.

No, the damaged TARDIS seems to have been forgotten, unless it's going to be important in the 2022 stuff.

 

[Anson Mount Seleya]

How were every single Lupari killed but their ship left intact?

IIRC, the Serpent or the Sontarans said the Lupari were ejected out into space. Which sure as shit makes them seem weaker than advertised.

And yeah, I forgot all about the damaged TARDIS with oozing console room and doors just mysteriously showing up. I guess so did Chibnall.

 

[Mr Awe]

To me, it seemed like he either had an ending but had to cut away material off it due to budget, or just really didn't have enough time to properly polish it, especially if the rumors of a cutdown season from 10 episodes is true.

In hindsight, the entirety of episode 5 was pointless. Chibnall should've used that screen time more wisely.

BTW, not a single Tecteun reference. Not saying she should have been a focal point, but... I dunno, not even a glimpse of a subconscious sense of loss for the Doctor? That woman's her oldest acquaintance by Chibnall's accounts!

That was a huge waste. The Doctor meeting her adoptive, abusive mother. Big meeting! But, no, a bit of exposition, a little bit of discussion, and then Tecteun is killed. Apparently for good.

There was opportunity to develop meaningful stories, but they seem wasted. Built up for nothing.

 

[Mr Awe]

Sure but without a body or clunky dialogue, that would've been difficult to convey especially considering The Doctor's lack of invested connection.

I'll be honest. I think a defter writer than Chibnall could've really made something compelling out of it. They would've set it up better to facilitate the storytelling. There IS lots of drama potential there.

And why go to all the trouble of making the Division Head be Tecteun, bringing her and the Doctor together, just to off her so quickly and abruptly end that angle?

That's emblematic of many things this series. Something gets built up but then it doesn't lead to anything significant or dropped entirely. Just feels like a lot of wasted story potential this series.

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

I'll be honest. I think a defter writer than Chibnall could've really made something compelling out of it. They would've set it up better to facilitate the storytelling. There IS lots of drama potential there.

And why go to all the trouble of making the Division Head be Tecteun, bringing her and the Doctor together, just to off her so quickly and abruptly end that angle?

That's emblematic of many things this series. Something gets built up but then it doesn't lead to anything significant or dropped entirely. Just feels like a lot of wasted story potential this series.

Yeah, I agree with all of this (and most of what you said in your main review). Lots of wasted potential. Some of it was done well, particularly the standalone episodes and the split Doctors in this episode, but otherwise...

As for your query about the TARDIS doors and it being sick, the poster for the New Year's Special references it, so hopefully that's something the episode addresses. Although the trailer seems to indicate it's strictly a time loop adventure with Daleks.

 

[Xerxes82]

That feeling when 80% of your major plot threads across the first five episodes turn out to just be padding to fill out the run time because you promised to deliver 6 episodes but really only had 3.

At least we got a good Sontaran and a great Weeping Angel episode out of this, but what a mess.

There was absolutely no benefit or gain from serializing these. The episodes could have been written to be fully standalone and not only would nothing have been lost, but it would have been clear that Bel, Vinder, the Great Serpent and all of the Kate and UNIT stuff was fluff that couldn't hold an entire episode to itself and we could have cut it all for something actually pertinent. Plus the Ravagers wouldn't have landed like the damp squib they are if they were only in one episode instead of teased across six with no payoff worth the name.

I actually enjoyed more of this batch than anything Chibnall and Whittaker have put together prior, it felt like they finally found a voice for the Doctor that worked for me and gave her some agency. But then we have this. Which is the exact opposite of sticking the landing. Yuck.

 

[Mr Awe]

Yeah, I agree with all of this (and most of what you said in your main review). Lots of wasted potential. Some of it was done well, particularly the standalone episodes and the split Doctors in this episode, but otherwise...

As for your query about the TARDIS doors and it being sick, the poster for the New Year's Special references it, so hopefully that's something the episode addresses. Although the trailer seems to indicate it's strictly a time loop adventure with Daleks.

I agree. There were parts that were excellent! And I really loved Jodie's portrayal of the Doctor. Nailed the role now that she has better material. I actually thought ALL of the guest characters were excellent too--they just didn't gel together, but I enjoyed them individually.

Interesting. Maybe the loop is a spillover effect from the sick TARDIS, flux, or whatever.

 

[Caretaker]

I figured there would be some big payoff - but the only payoff was yet another "Tenth Doctor-ish warning of the inpending end of that Doctor's incarnation". So that was disappointing. Just makes me wonder what was the point of this storyline.

I'm still not sure what the status of the universe itself is at the end after The Flux. Anyone understand it? And yet another alien invasion of Earth that will probably be wiped out and/or forgotten the next time the writers decide to reset to the status quo.

Loved seeing the interaction of the two Doctors. And this secondary protagonists were interesting - I'd love to see more of them. I wish BBC America had saved the trailer for the New Year special until the end instead of something like the 45 minute mark.