The UESPA Question

[Capt_Jason]

Timo said:
As far as alternatives go, we could say that there was no United Earth Space Probe Agency when Friendship One was launched.

Just look at the organization calling itself DASA. You know, Deutsche Aerospace AG. I mean, Daimler-Benz Aerospace. That is, DaimlerChrysler Aerospace AG. (Currently known as "one third of EADS".)

It is often advantageous for commercial or political entities to hang on to their cool acronyms even when their actual name or the very basis of ownership or management is radically changed. UESPA might well be one of those. Perhaps Friendship One was launched by the United Europe or by Universal Exports, while only Friendship Sixty-Eight was created by the United Earth?

Timo Saloniemi

Thanks for responding, Timo. Out of all of the concepts that came out of VOY, certainly Friendship One is the most. . . friendly. . .to the particular group of fanon sources that I am working with here. Although the suggested founding date for UESPA does not apply well to said sources, the probe itself would appear to make some sense. According to my sources, the last Earth-Kzin War was 2064. The canonical date for the launch of the probe is 2067. Would it be possible that, under the warm and fuzzy moniker of the probe's name, it's true purpose (the PR campaign for it's launch would, of course, bely its actual value as an intelligence instrument. This is NOT without some precedence in our own continuum) might have been to provide some extensive reconaissance and intelligence info on the state of the interstellar neighborhood after the conclusion of the wars?

I would very much open to the use of this probe in the Graham/Mandel timeline with the caveats taken under consideration.

 

[Capt_Jason]

I provided my input. You seem to want something different.

Well, you yourself said that the discussion was devolving into a pissing contest. It so happens that I was stating the obvious before you did.

I have always valued your input, mate. Though we disagree a great deal on "directions" to take treknical fiction, I still consider your input to be valid and worth considering. As I stated above, I am NOT beneath considering alternatives. However for the sources that I have elected to work, the need for a "united earth' was realized in a United Nations which continued to evolve. and in time, became the defacto world government for planet Earth according to the works o FJ, and Geoff Mandel. As stated earlier, the UN was present for the signing of the Articles of Federation.

Now does that leave an opening for the possibility that the UN rose, fell and perhaps arose again? Perhaps, but I would tend to wonder why it would suffer such indignation and "come back home" as it were. Why not simply replace it with an organization such as was suggested in the canon 'verse or in the particular scenario you suggest. I CAN accept the idea that perhaps the UESPA office was initially demanded for some sort of "virtual community" or perhaps a conglomerate of commercial and private interests and eventually enstated by the UN itself sometime prior to 1988. The timeline I provided above asks a set of very specific questions of you and the others. SO far, this set of questions has not really been addressed.

We know what the socio-political environment was like in the late 1960s according to TOS. We know that the US and the USSR were conducting operations which would have put a nuclear arsenal into orbit. I submit that in one particular set of outcomes, said nations were succesful and this nuke arsenal was put into orbit, only to serve as a harbinger for things to come in the canon 'verse when those very same nukes fell and annihilated 600 million people according to FC. However, we know from the Graham/Mandel 'verse (which is considerably more TOS friendly and for good reasons obviously) that orbital nukes did not fall, there was no global nuclear holocaust, and Earth faced a far more formidable threat in the Kzinti during the period of time FC suggests was a time of a renewed "hot war" state.

In the canon 'verse, we can see that the reasons are pretty clear for a need for the abandonment of a UN, which was followed by a "New" United Nations sometime prior to 2036, followed by a period of socio-political decay and eventually a "war day" in 2053. Ten years later, somehow or another, Sol avoids being invaded by the Kzin (possibly due to the fact that the interstellar neighborhood was already in possession of an advanced warp drive i.e the Vulcan visit) spends a decade trying to recover from the devestation. Finally a drunken, womanizing ZC cobbles together his warp missile, succesfully launches the thing and it just so "happens" a Vulcan surveyor is in the neighborhood to see it and drops down to Bozeman to say hello. A mere four years later, and we have a UESPA, and with it apparently, semblance of a United Earth. However in 2079, apparently something else occurs which calls the "united earth nonsense" into question, according to Q in TNG. Fast forward to ENT, we learn that indeed the planet was united but only sometime after 2113 or 2123 perhaps even as late as 2150, whith UE Starfleet that "hasn't been around all that long" according to Trip Tucker.

A very confusing set of events if you ask me, and part of the reasons why I would rather work with an alternative and one that is far older than the material we are forced to work with in the canon 'verse. I am aware of your intentions for the UE and the Star Fleet that goes with for the purposes of the FRS. I know, I was there . I still have some vested interest in seeing it happen. However, my personally preferred 'verse lies in the material which predates the "united earth" nonsense. In my opinion, FJ had it right when he suggested a succesful United Nations, as I would rather have distinct cultural zones on our planet by the time of the 2120s not a mass of people dependent upon what amounts to a near-anarchal system of self-governance. I just cant wrap my mind around a UE that would not have some semblance of infrastructure or central authority even in it's infancy. Even a virtual community would require power and resouces necessary for its continued existence. Im not sure if you suggest otherwise or not. I am hoping you aren't

Since were on the subject of academic qualifications and some such, I have a B.A. in Cultural and Behavioral Sciences with primary focus on Anthropology and Archaeology. However I really do NOT see a need to throw this about as if it will somehow make me more or less qualified to discuss what are...works of fiction borderline on science fantasy. Especially conisering that the body of work I choose to work with is dated and essentially written in stone as it were. It is a choice I make to work with them as is. Now, I am trying to learn how we can take what we were given and continue playing it with it.

More on this as we go. Thanks for your input.

 

[Vance]

Three men, three urinals, and one ruler. Who will win?

Honestly, guys, this is ridiculous in how this is being discussed. We know that, at some point, on Trek's own lore, the United Nation becomes United Earth - likely shortly after meeting the Vulcans and in order to 'up the stakes' in government, as it were.

The idea that Earth becomes a 'unity' is nonsense on the face of it. TOS, TNG, etc, disproves THAT by mentioning which states and countries on Earth that various crew-members are from.

 

[Sec31Mike]

People tend to remember their hometown and local interests. I would think that all of the names of countries, states and towns would still be around. It would be a herculean effort to erase all evidence of locality on Earth. Where people are born and raised is a very important part of a person's past and identity.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Timo said:
Just look at the organization calling itself DASA. You know, Deutsche Aerospace AG. I mean, Daimler-Benz Aerospace. That is, DaimlerChrysler Aerospace AG. (Currently known as "one third of EADS".)

2006: EADS Astrium GmbH.
2003: EADS Astrium Space Transportation GmbH.
2000: EADS Astrium GmbH.
1998: DaimlerChrysler Aerospace AG.
1995: Daimler-Benz Aerospace AG.
1989: Deutsche Aerospace AG.
1981: Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm (MBB) ERNO Raumfahrttechnik GmbH.
1967: ERNO Raumfahrttechnik GmbH.
1963: Entwicklungsring Nord (ERNO) ArGe.

Of course, it is worth noting that ERNO itself arose from the smoking post-war ruins of the Deutsche Forschungsanstalt für Luftfahrt (DFL) established by the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) in 1936 under the leadership of Dr. Eugen Sänger.

TGT

 

[Timo]

...Indeed, UESPA might extend its pedigree to the prewar ISA and NASA and whatever organization there might have been for exploiting the discoveries of those two in the framework of the (New) United Nations, blah blah blah. Ultimately, it, too, would have a Nazi or two as founding fathers.

If anything, cooperation on space exploration would be the first area where humanity could pull together after WWIII. I mean, there probably wouldn't be a space race as such: Cochrane demonstrated that a hillbilly can build a warpship out of spit and bale wire, and his newly found idealism might lead him to, say, distributing his blueprints across the world (with the Vulcans quite possibly assisting). Everybody would know how to go to the stars, then - but nobody could really afford it without some cooperation.

OTOH, Vulcans would have made it painfully clear that, were there to be a "warp race", it would resemble Paralympics: even the winner would be a retard when compared with the entities already out there. So huddling together might be the sensible approach for the nations of Earth.

And ultimately, the universe awaiting Earthlings out there would not be all that interesting for any individual nation, strategically speaking. Given the great disparity between the Earthling upstarts and the established Spacers, any strategic interests would be those of the whole Earth, or those of individual corporations or entrepreneurs.

According to my sources, the last Earth-Kzin War was 2064. The canonical date for the launch of the probe is 2067. Would it be possible that, under the warm and fuzzy moniker of the probe's name, it's true purpose (the PR campaign for it's launch would, of course, bely its actual value as an intelligence instrument. This is NOT without some precedence in our own continuum) might have been to provide some extensive reconaissance and intelligence info on the state of the interstellar neighborhood after the conclusion of the wars?

Hmm... Perhaps. But why send a hyper-ultra-googolplex-speed probe to the other side of the galaxy if the tactical reason for the reconnaissance is to scout out the neighborhood for potential enemies or victims? To me, Friendship 1 appears more like a technology demonstrator and tour de force - and perhaps also an attempt to independently verify or disprove the orthodox Vulcan view of the universe, by flying beyond Vulcan ambitions.

As for the Kzinti wars, those are probably the most crucial thing about Trek's 21st century pseudohistory. If they really happened back then, this would establish Earth as a local power of some standing and help explain her political survival and later ascent. They would also mesh with the mostly combat-oriented Earth Starfleet we see in ENT - a force bloodied in battle (albeit against distinct inferiors), indoctrinated to defend the home base, afraid to venture too far out, but still convinced that it could handle future threats if given the "opportunity".

Against all this goes the problem of there only being that single mention of the entire species, let alone their influence on mankind's past. Should we take Sulu's "200 years ago" so literally, or at the other extreme give so much leeway that the four conflicts take place after ENT? The latter offers some dramatic possibilities and timeline fun as well - especially if we consider the opponent to have been part of the greater Kzinti/Xindi/Xendi political entity, the little-known felinoid Xindi species...

Timo Saloniemi