The Typhon Pact - Can it work in the long run?

[Jeff]

Just finished Raise the Dawn, and I wonder if anyone thinks how I do about the long-term sustainability of the Typhon Pact. I think that this has some great storytelling possibilities, but I don't think that in the long run these six governments can work together.

For example, Gell Kamemor from what I have read is an entirely different proposition from say, Shinzon or Tal'Aura, and seems focused on what is best for the Romulan people instead of touting the idea that the Romulans should rule everyone. If she felt it benefited her people to leave the Pact, she would.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Christopher]

Well, remember -- according to Keith R. A. DeCandido, who co-created the Pact along with Marco Palmieri, the intention was to parallel the formation of the Federation itself. As we saw in Enterprise, the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites had never gotten along in the past, and for a long time there was tension between Earth and Vulcan. It wouldn't have seemed like those nations could ever come together in a stable partnership. Yet once they recognized the benefits of partnership, they were able to grow beyond their self-interest and mutual mistrust and come together. And that partnership is still going strong after 220-odd years.

As for the Pact, it's still only a couple of years old. Naturally it's having growing pains, and it's a more turbulent journey because these nations rushed into partnership without much prior history of cooperation (whereas the founders of the UFP had been allies for six years or more before uniting). But it's way too early to judge whether they'll be able to make it work in the long run. Maybe the Pact is like the Coalition of Planets -- it will turn out to be just the forerunner of a stronger union that might have a slightly different membership. But in any case, the thing that brought the Pact's members together was the mutual recognition that cooperation was good for them, that they were stronger together than apart. It seems unlikely that all of them would completely forget that.

 

[shanejayell]

And either way, it'll produce interesting stories. Which is kinda the point. *lol*

 

[CaptainDonovin]

And either way, it'll produce interesting stories. Which is kinda the point. *lol*

I for one welcome the stories, brings a nice batch intreagueing stories that can span multiple books.

 

[Relayer1]

I don't see why the TP wouldn't be a permanent presence from here on in.

Then again, it may not last the next 12 months.

Interesting isn't it ?

 

[Sci]

One thing that I think is interesting about the Pact...

... it's not bound by any particular ideology.

My thought process:

The NATO and Warsaw Pact alliances during the Cold War were held together by shared ideologies. The Soviet Union, the German Democratic Republic, the People's Republics of Hungary and Poland, etc. -- in addition to being Soviet Union puppet governments -- were united by a belief in Marxism-Leninism. These were nations that believed in the "worker's state," and in the necessity of giving power to a "vanguard party" that would rule as temporary dictators until equality in the form of "true Communism" could be established.

And the NATO allies, of course, were bound together -- in addition to being dominated by the United States -- by a common belief in liberal democracy and in capitalism.

Now, with the Khitomer Accords powers, we're seeing the start of a common set of beliefs. The Cardassian Union has embraced liberal democracy, and the Ferengi Alliance has started to embrace more social and economic egalitarian ideals, even if it's not a true democracy yet.

But the Typhon Pact doesn't really have anything holding it together other than the benefits of cooperating and sharing resources, and a common desire to avoid coming under the Federation's sway. There's no common belief in a specific political or economic system.

Does that mean it won't hold together? Not necessarily. The Federation and Klingon Empire have held their alliance together for most of 80 years even without sharing a common political or economic value system. And real history has plenty of alliances that endured for a long time purely on strategic bases, not on ideological bases. (The Aud Alliance, for instance.)

But it is an interesting question to ponder. What, at the end of the day, do Romulus, Ab-Tzenketh, Tholia, Breen, Janalwa, and Gornar all believe in?

 

[JD]

Janalwa and Gornar? Are those the Gorn and Kinshaya homeworlds?

 

[rfmcdpei]

Janalwa and Gornar? Are those the Gorn and Kinshaya homeworlds?

Gornar is the Gorn homeworld--Tau Lacertae IX, established way back in Worlds of the Federation--but Janalwa is the most populous Kinshaya world, having taken over governance of the Holy Order after the Klingon-Kinshaya conflict that ruined the Kinshaya homeworld.

 

[DEWLine]

I still want to see a proper map of the current set-up. It nags at me a little...

 

[R. Star]

The Typhoon Pact is basically an anti-Federaton alliance. It having become so powerful that all the other local governments feel they have to band together to compete against it.

Sure the Klingons, Cardassia and Ferenginar are allied with the Federation, but that doesn't mean much. The Klingons got grinded under during the Borg invasion, the Ferengi were never really militant and the Cardassians, while rearming definitely, are still probably a second rate power.

As for the Typhon Pact? I see them like the Allies during world war 2. Differing ideologies all united against the Axis. Like in that situation, if the Federation was somehow removed as the single great power in the quadrant, you'd see a falling out among bedfellows.

 

[Sci]

Janalwa and Gornar? Are those the Gorn and Kinshaya homeworlds?

Gornar is the Gorn homeworld and capital planet. Janalwa is not the Kinshaya homeworld -- the Klingons glassed their homeworld a few years before the formation of the Typhon Pact -- but it is now their capital planet.

I still want to see a proper map of the current set-up. It nags at me a little...

A few years ago, someone -- I believe Christopher -- created a map of the Typhon Pact by modifying a scan of the area around Federation space from Geoffrey Mandel's Star Charts, coloring the territories of the Typhon Pact states in orange. I can't seem to find it on his website or the thread where he posted it, but I saved it to my computer and have uploaded a copy of it to Photobucket:

As you can see, it is outdated in one respect: This was made back when the Romulans were still divided between the Romulan Star Empire and the Imperial Romulan State. The RSE is the orange one that's closer to the Federation; the part that's still green was the IRS. Now that the IRS has been absorbed back into the RSE, just pretend the rest of the green Romulan space is orange.

ETA:

As far as Khitomer Accords powers go:

The purple territory just to the left of the Federation and below the Breen is the Cardassian Union. The blue territory "above" (that is, coreward) of the Tzenkethi is the Ferengi Alliance. The giant red territory to the right of the UFP, which I just realized has no label, is the Klingon Empire. The blue territory just below the Cardassians is the Talarian Republic, which is not a Khitomer Accords member but is friendly.

 

[Christopher]

The Typhoon Pact is basically an anti-Federaton alliance. It having become so powerful that all the other local governments feel they have to band together to compete against it.

No, the Typhon Pact is basically a pro-Typhon Pact alliance. Its first priority is cooperation for the well-being of its own members. Being strong enough to counter Federation dominance is part of that, and there are factions within the Pact that think that more aggressively undermining the UFP is necessary for their own security. But ultimately, as with any real nation, their first priority is their own best interests, and they surely have plenty of domestic and foreign matters of concern that aren't about the Federation at all. Indeed, that's the whole point -- to get to a position where their lives aren't dominated by the Federation any longer.

And it's Typhon, after the Typhon Expanse where the actual pact was signed, which is named in turn for the monster Typhon from Greek mythology. It rhymes with "python" or "icon." It has nothing to do with typhoons, which are tropical cyclones in the northwestern Pacific.

Sure the Klingons, Cardassia and Ferenginar are allied with the Federation, but that doesn't mean much. The Klingons got grinded under during the Borg invasion, the Ferengi were never really militant and the Cardassians, while rearming definitely, are still probably a second rate power.

First off, the percentage of Klingon territory that was devastated by the Borg is smaller than the percentage of UFP territory that was. Second, since when has military strength been the only significant factor in a nation's power? Economic strength is vital too. A large part of the reason the Pact was formed was because its members, too, were damaged by the Borg invasion (several of them actually participated with the Federation in defending against the Borg, though their resentment at being coerced into doing so by President Bacco was part of what convinced them to form their own bloc). All these nations are trying to rebuild, to consolidate their strength. That requires economic and political strength, not just weapons and armies. Building guns doesn't feed your population or restore devastated planetary ecosystems.

Like in that situation, if the Federation was somehow removed as the single great power in the quadrant, you'd see a falling out among bedfellows.

Or maybe not, since, again, they do not exist with the exclusive goal of being "anti-Federation." They formed the Pact -- and remember, this is Word of God from Keith DeCandido, who co-created them -- because they were inspired by the Federation's example, because they realized that cooperation with other nations helped advance their own interests, their own prosperity and strength. Take the Federation away and it becomes easier for the Pact to pursue the goals it was actually founded to pursue. Maybe the Tholians would drop out at that point, since they are basically using the Pact as simply a means of hurting the UFP, but the other nations have their own reasons for being part of it.

 

[rfmcdpei]

One thing that I think is interesting about the Pact...

... it's not bound by any particular ideology.

My thought process:

The NATO and Warsaw Pact alliances during the Cold War were held together by shared ideologies. The Soviet Union, the German Democratic Republic, the People's Republics of Hungary and Poland, etc. -- in addition to being Soviet Union puppet governments -- were united by a belief in Marxism-Leninism. These were nations that believed in the "worker's state," and in the necessity of giving power to a "vanguard party" that would rule as temporary dictators until equality in the form of "true Communism" could be established.

Although Communism was truly and indigenously popular in parts of the Warsaw Pact, especially Czechoslovakia but also to a degree in Hungary, the Warsaw Pact was ultimately a bloc held together by the likelihood of Soviet military intervention if its smaller member-states deviated too far from Soviet norms. If not for the threat of Soviet military interventions, the bloc would have fallen apart a long time before 1989.

The Typhon Pact isn't like the Warsaw Pact. Romulus is apparently the largest member-state of the alliance, but the other states joined of their free will. Romulan troops aren't occupying Ab-Tzenketh and Gornar. Tal'Aura would have tried to use the Typhon Pact to magnify Romulus' strength in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, but without direct control of the smaller member-states there would be only so far that she could go.

(There does seem to be some concern, among the Romulans and the Gorn, that breaking with the Pact could lead to catastrophic retaliation, but that's another thing.)

 

[starri]

Perhaps a better parallel is the EU. We know, because KRaD established it, that the TP states have their own common currency and a unified economy.

The only thing that they don't seem to have in common with the EU is--at least at present--a centralized, evolved government, but then, since none of them seem to be democracies, at least as humans would define them, that may not be something that would happen right away.

And clearly, as others have said, simple antagonism is not the only reason that all the members have joined: Tal'Aura seems to have pursued it for economic reasons, the Kinshaya for defense, the Tzenkethi are jerks.

 

[Sho]

The board needs a feature where, upon trying to submit a post to the TrekLit subforum that contains the word "typhoon", an interstitial with a group photo of our esteemed authors pops up, carrying accusatory miens above a subtitle: "Did you really mean to write 'typhoon'?"

 

[Christopher]

And clearly, as others have said, simple antagonism is not the only reason that all the members have joined: Tal'Aura seems to have pursued it for economic reasons, the Kinshaya for defense, the Tzenkethi are jerks.

It seems pretty clear that the Tzenkethi's motive was self-protection. They're a paranoid people, defensive about their borders and autonomy, and they see the powerful, neighboring Federation as a threat to that. And they've realized that allying with the Pact gives them more security -- although I'll grant that they're going about it in a jerky fashion, by manipulating and spying on their supposed allies in order to serve their own interests.

Now, the Tholians are the ones with the most belligerent motives for joining, overtly using the Pact as a tool to undermine and hurt the Federation. And the Breen seem to have joined it for the same reason they allied with the Dominion, as a means of increasing their power and influence.

 

[Sci]

Perhaps a better parallel is the EU. We know, because KRaD established it, that the TP states have their own common currency and a unified economy.

Well, there's certainly an E.U. parallel insofar as the Pact has adopted a common currency. Given the Breen Domo's control over Breen government spending on the quantum slipstream prototype in Zero Sum Game, I would infer that the Typhon Pact is a monetary union but not a fiscal union; individual Typhon Pact member states seem to retain control over their own fiscal policies but not their common monetary policy.

Which, as we've seen in the E.U. in real life, is a recipe for disaster....

But, of course, the big difference between the Typhon Pact and the European Union is that the E.U. is united by a common political and economic ideology -- E.U. states by definition are liberal democracies with some form of capitalism. (Though to be fair, Hungary is starting to revert away from that whole liberal democracy thing, and the E.U. itself is undermining the democratic processes in states like Greece where it's foisting austerity measures upon populaces where such measures are not necessarily supported by the public at large.)

The Typhon Pact, by contrast, doesn't have a common political or economic ideology that I can divine. The Tzenkethi seem to believe strongly in the idea of eugenics, in genetic stratification; the Breen seem dominated by a combination of a sort of dark capitalism/corporatism and an oppressive obsession with pseudo-egalitarian homogeny; the Romulans remain as aristocratic as ever, though Kamemor's been embracing individual rights more; the Tholians' insectoid group-mind remains as inscrutible to outsiders as ever; the Kinshaya are a theocracy; and the Gorn seem to believe in caste-based autocracy.

The only thing that they don't seem to have in common with the EU is--at least at present--a centralized, evolved government, but then, since none of them seem to be democracies, at least as humans would define them, that may not be something that would happen right away.

Well, no, the Typhon Pact maintains a Board of Governors, to which representatives from each member state are appointed by their respective heads of state or government.

And since we know that the Pact itself maintains a diplomatic mission to the Federation, that strongly implies some sort of Typhon Pact secretariat charged with implementing whatever common Pact foreign policies are developed by the Board of Governors.

The fact of the Pact's monetary union also strongly implies the existence (or eventual establishment) of some sort of Typhon Central Bank, a la the European Central Bank.

 

[starri]

It occurred to me as I was writing that I had no idea about why the Gorn had joined up, and I guess I'm still not really sure. I guess I could skim over Sieze the Fire, but I don't have a strong desire to revisit that particular novel, and even so, I suspect my memories of it not really being brought up are accurate. But I could be wrong.

 

[starri]

The only thing that they don't seem to have in common with the EU is--at least at present--a centralized, evolved government, but then, since none of them seem to be democracies, at least as humans would define them, that may not be something that would happen right away.

Well, no, the Typhon Pact maintains a Board of Governors, to which representatives from each member state are appointed by their respective heads of state or government.

Well, the impression that I've taken away from the board is that it's has some sort of oversight role the larger Pact, but that each member government has its own autonomy. Which, again would parallel the EU, since the European Parliament, at least based on my limited, American understanding of it, deals only with matters pertaining to the whole Union, and does not concern itself with the individual members at least as far as conflict with the broader treaty.

Also, the Gorn had a major environment disaster and didn't seem to be receiving any help from the other governments, nor has there really been much indication, beyond the covert operations involving the slipstream technology, of common military involvement. Whereas with the Khitomer powers, as soon as the Cardassians had become signatories, there were already officers from the Central Command serving on Starfleet ships.

As an aside, I kind of hope they establish the Klingons as being like the French, refusing to formally become part of a centralized command structure. It just seems like it would be part of the Klingon temperament.

 

[Sci]

Well, no, the Typhon Pact maintains a Board of Governors, to which representatives from each member state are appointed by their respective heads of state or government.

Well, the impression that I've taken away from the board is that it's has some sort of oversight role the larger Pact, but that each member government has its own autonomy. Which, again would parallel the EU, since the European Parliament, at least based on my limited, American understanding of it, deals only with matters pertaining to the whole Union, and does not concern itself with the individual members at least as far as conflict with the broader treaty.

In that level, the parallel is actually stronger than you think; the European Parliament is basically powerless. Real power in the E.U. lies with the member governments.

But, yeah, while the Pact as a unit has a certain level of power, most actual power remains in the hands of the Pact member states.

Also, the Gorn had a major environment disaster and didn't seem to be receiving any help from the other governments, nor has there really been much indication, beyond the covert operations involving the slipstream technology, of common military involvement. Whereas with the Khitomer powers, as soon as the Cardassians had become signatories, there were already officers from the Central Command serving on Starfleet ships.

As an aside, I kind of hope they establish the Klingons as being like the French, refusing to formally become part of a centralized command structure. It just seems like it would be part of the Klingon temperament.

Excellent point, and I like your insight there into the Klingons.