The Twilight Saga: Eclipse - Discussion and Grading

[doubleohfive]

I will say this about Eclipse ... there was a subtlety I quite liked about it. All throughout the film, there is an understated, almost intimate build-up to the final battle sequence, and even the battle sequence is understated and not over-done, as is usually the case with genre films (Lord of the Rings, Pirates of the Caribbean, The Matrix). I quite liked that about this film, and hope it's something they try to replicate in the next two.

 

[Gaith]

I just have to say this: as a long time Trekkie, I do not expect my fellow Trekkies on a Trek board to have such condescending attitudes toward the fans and the mytharc of Twilight. Have we forgotten how WE are treated by society on the whole?

A calumnious comparison. Trek's core values are to explore, better one's self, and serve others. Twilight's core values are to never get wrinkles, and protect one's own interests at all costs:

Meyer once retorted to critics who accused her of misogyny, “I am not anti-female; I am anti-human.” Whether she was aware of it or not, this was far more than just a flippant remark. Just like the allegedly positive messages about romance and sexuality, any value that Meyer and her characters place on human life is only on the surface. More than once, Edward and his family look the other way — or even provide assistance — when fellow members of their species hunt humans, just as long as those humans aren’t people they know.

...

As a woman, I'm just way happy that a "girlie" franchise is finally making so much g-d money. Seriously, guys, can't you just be happy for us?

I think most of us are simply baffled as to what drives all these women to embrace a series that treats women so badly.

 

[Dream]

More than once, Edward and his family look the other way — or even provide assistance — when fellow members of their species hunt humans, just as long as those humans aren’t people they know.

...

What a very strange thing to say.

They are VAMPIRES! To nearly all vampries, human beings on at the bottom of the food chain. The vampire leaders themselves, the Volturi, feed on humans. In the books, the Cullen family are considered odd by other vampires because they refrain from human blood. If they started protecting humans everywhere it would be if one of us tried to protect all cows in the world from being slaugthered. They are not responsible for what other creatures like them do.

 

[indranee]

I just have to say this: as a long time Trekkie, I do not expect my fellow Trekkies on a Trek board to have such condescending attitudes toward the fans and the mytharc of Twilight. Have we forgotten how WE are treated by society on the whole?

A calumnious comparison. Trek's core values are to explore, better one's self, and serve others. Twilight's core values are to never get wrinkles, and protect one's own interests at all costs:

Meyer once retorted to critics who accused her of misogyny, “I am not anti-female; I am anti-human.” Whether she was aware of it or not, this was far more than just a flippant remark. Just like the allegedly positive messages about romance and sexuality, any value that Meyer and her characters place on human life is only on the surface. More than once, Edward and his family look the other way — or even provide assistance — when fellow members of their species hunt humans, just as long as those humans aren’t people they know.

...

As a woman, I'm just way happy that a "girlie" franchise is finally making so much g-d money. Seriously, guys, can't you just be happy for us?

I think most of us are simply baffled as to what drives all these women to embrace a series that treats women so badly.

I still don't expect condescension. Bafflement, sure. Not condescension. I've been there. I was a Trekkie when it was NOT fashionable. I've been one for 35 years now. I'm not gonna play that card.

As far as the women thing. Come on. Turnabout Intruder is only ONE little example of Trek's fall from grace in that department. So let's not get into the comparison thing.

Fiction and entertainment should not be judged on a scale of 1) reality and 2) morality. If they were, the Illiad would never be held in the high esteem it is today. Not that I'm comparing Stepehenie Meyer to Homer, mind you

 

[indranee]

More than once, Edward and his family look the other way — or even provide assistance — when fellow members of their species hunt humans, just as long as those humans aren’t people they know.

...

What a very strange thing to say.

They are VAMPIRES! To nearly all vampries, human beings on at the bottom of the food chain. The vampire leaders themselves, the Volturi, feed on humans. In the books, the Cullen family are considered odd by other vampires because they refrain from human blood. If they started protecting humans everywhere it would be if one of us tried to protect all cows in the world from being slaugthered. They are not responsible for what other creatures like them do.

Well, India and Indians do try, but then America and the rest of the world makes fun of them 'cos they protect the cow

The Cullens, as you said, are "odd". They are considered unique by other vampires and, if people read the book, they would realize that at the heart of the Volturi "invasion" at the end of the movie was a plot by the Volturi and the newborns to do away with the Cullens, not just Bella. Bella is not that significant in the scheme of things. The Cullens are considered the real threat by the Volturi.

Jake and his wolfpack threw a wrench into that plan because the newborns were pretty much a nonentity at the end of the battle.

 

[Gaith]

As far as the women thing. Come on. Turnabout Intruder is only ONE little example of Trek's fall from grace in that department. So let's not get into the comparison thing.

No, let's, by all means. Sure, Trek has awful and embarrassing moments. But it's still more moral than Twilight in every conceivable respect.

As for The Iliad, it's only worth remembering because of its history, and the ways in which that history continue to shape our culture today. If some guy were to write it now, it'd be quickly and justly forgotten.

If they started protecting humans everywhere it would be if one of us tried to protect all cows in the world from being slaugthered. They are not responsible for what other creatures like them do.

An inane analogy, considering humans are sentient and cows aren't.

 

[Dream]

If they started protecting humans everywhere it would be if one of us tried to protect all cows in the world from being slaugthered. They are not responsible for what other creatures like them do.

An inane analogy, considering humans are sentient and cows aren't.

Vampires for the most part don't care that humans are sentient. If vampires were real we might as well be cows to them. In nearly all stories, vampires are much stronger, faster, and have special powers that humans don't. Bella was lucky Edward didn't eat her up on her first day of school.

I think Spike, a famous vampire, said it best when he called all humans "Happy Meals with legs".

 

[Gaith]

^^ An excellent argument, incidentally, for a belief I already happen to hold: vampires should not be good guys. Ever. No vegetarian vampires, no emo vampires who want to be good, no vampires who are kinda decent but harassed by vampire Tom Cruise, not even hot vampires in tight leather who battle other vampires. My only exception: LXG, because Peta Wilson's Mina Harker was pretty damn classy. But there she was just one of a team, so it wasn't a big deal anyway.

 

[Theonethatis]

I saw it tonight with my wife. I enjoyed it quite a bit. You can tell that the director knew what we was doing. It was also kinda neat to hear Howard Shore doing the score. However I have come to the conclusion that I hate Edward Cullen. Every time he was on screen I wanted to set him on fire. I liked Jasper and the other vamps, but Edward is such a lifeless vampire No pun intended. I swear Edward could take lessons from Louis de Pointe du Lac on how to be lively.

The wolves were pretty good. I always cheer for the nice guy to get the girl. However Bella should grow a backbone and leave both of them and go to college to make something of her life. Get out of the small town Bella and go experience life.

My wife is a Twilight fan girl. So it was cool to share her geeky obsession when she has to put up with all mine.

 

[doubleohfive]

^
I was talking to my Twi-hard friend back home about this tonight as well and as I said to her -- I genuinely like the supporting characters in these films. In fact, almost all of them. It's just Bella, Edward, and Jacob who are plainly uninteresting or just irritating to me.

 

[Theonethatis]

Yeah I understand that. Bella has got to be one of the worst protagonists of all time. And Edward literally makes my skin crawl. Talk about a controlling asshole as a boyfriend. I do like Jacob though. But again I haven't seen New Moon so maybe he is also a total ass. The other Vamps are pretty cool. Jasper is a interesting character and so is the father and Rosalee.

Bella just needs to find herself and not think her worth is just being a prize to supernatural creatures. Thats the one thing that I really really don't like about Twilight. It basically says women are just there to be props and prizes. And I worry that it teaches girls wrong lessons about empowerment. I am kinda glad my step daughter doesn't like Twilight,she likes Buffy.

 

[Dream]

The other Vamps are pretty cool. Jasper is a interesting character and so is the father and Rosalee.

I agree. Many of the supporting vampire characters are pretty cool. I wish that Meyer did a novel on one of them.

Instead she released a new novel a week ago about that little girl vampire that surrended at the end of Eclipse. Why did she have to do a novel on a minor character that no one cared about?

 

[Trekker4747]

Trekker, how is choosing immortality and superhuman strength and some sort of superpower AND a hot dude to sleep with through it a "bad thing" lol? Wouldn't you do it if it was a hot chick?

I'd rather choose that option than choose a guy who has a short leash on his temper and a tendency to scratch people's faces off

There's the whole "being undead" thing, the thirst for blood, the "misery" of immortality, her not being able to see her family or live a "normal" life and... Edward is hot?

As a woman, I'm just way happy that a "girlie" franchise is finally making so much g-d money. Seriously, guys, can't you just be happy for us?

I think most of us are simply baffled as to what drives all these women to embrace a series that treats women so badly.

That article says pretty nicely the problems I have with this series.

 

[Kegg]

I just have to say this: as a long time Trekkie, I do not expect my fellow Trekkies on a Trek board to have such condescending attitudes toward the fans and the mytharc of Twilight. Have we forgotten how WE are treated by society on the whole?

A calumnious comparison.

Not really. It's a little thing called civility; you know. You may hate Twilight but it doesn't mean you have to despise the fanbase, no?

Besides, plenty of us here are fans of stuff we can't defend with big weighty prose as deep and meaningful. That's geekdom. Yeah, Star Trek might have MEANINGS!, but also, it's got spaceships and aliens, and let's not pretend that isn't part of the appeal, eh? If geeks can only be respected if they can deduce profound life lessons from their preferred title, well, we really haven't learned much.

As a woman, I'm just way happy that a "girlie" franchise is finally making so much g-d money. Seriously, guys, can't you just be happy for us?

I think most of us are simply baffled as to what drives all these women to embrace a series that treats women so badly.

Their business, I suspect. The only Twilight fans I even know are those who are capable of disentangling fantasy from reality, and assuming otherwise is just a new sort of moral panic.

^^ An excellent argument, incidentally, for a belief I already happen to hold: vampires should not be good guys. Ever. No vegetarian vampires, no emo vampires who want to be good,

Discworld's abstaining vampires are hilarious so I must demur.

 

[Theonethatis]

The other Vamps are pretty cool. Jasper is a interesting character and so is the father and Rosalee.

I agree. Many of the supporting vampire characters are pretty cool. I wish that Meyer did a novel on one of them.

Instead she released a new novel a week ago about that little girl vampire that surrended at the end of Eclipse. Why did she have to do a novel on a minor character that no one cared about?

My wifes pretty excited about that book. But what can I say. I was excited to read about the Vampire Pandora from Anne Rice. Kinda the same thing, A Vamp no one really cared about.

 

[NuFan]

Since there were no redeeming qualities to the first one, I've passed on both sequels. They are really rushing these out, though. As if they already know it's just a passing fad.

 

[Trekker4747]

Since there were no redeeming qualities to the first one, I've passed on both sequels. They are really rushing these out, though. As if they already know it's just a passing fad.

I'd argue the same thing for the Harry Potter Books/movies but those I've no interest in even on a "to make fun of" level so I've ignored those completely. I suspect they're trying to capitalize on the fad and getting them out before the actors get too old.

 

[Dream]

They are really rushing these out, though. As if they already know it's just a passing fad.

Many of the characters in the series are vampires, and are never suppose to age. They can't exactly wait three years to do each movie.

 

[Gaith]

Bella should grow a backbone and leave both of them and go to college to make something of her life.

I don't understand. How would that keep her pretty, waif-thin and wrinkle-free forever?

It's a little thing called civility; you know. You may hate Twilight but it doesn't mean you have to despise the fanbase, no?

Calling out an injurious argument isn't "despising the fanbase". And it's not as though I go to Twilight boards to slag off on the series. But if someone defends it on a Trek board, there's room for reasoned criticism.

Yeah, Star Trek might have MEANINGS!, but also, it's got spaceships and aliens, and let's not pretend that isn't part of the appeal, eh?

Of course. And if Twilight combined hunky, shirtless guys pining over a placeholder character girl and professing undying love for her while trying to do at least some good for other people now and again, we probably wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the "anti-human" (Meyer's own term), 100% superficial beauty-oriented stuff that bugs us.

 

[Trekker4747]

Bella should grow a backbone and leave both of them and go to college to make something of her life.

I don't understand. How would that keep her pretty, waif-thin and wrinkle-free forever?

She's a 17 year-old-girl making life-altering decisions because she's in a teenage rommance. How many people meet their OTL in high-school and stay with them until death? God, these stories are so fucked-up in the "message" they're giving girls.

Change everything that you are, give-up your family and entire damn future for a high-school rommance.

Oh, and in the second book/movie she gets her panties all in a knot because she turns the ripe old age of eightteen! Oh no! Get over yourself and get on some anti-depressants, Bella!