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Spoilers The Timeless Children grade and discussion thread

How do you rate The Timeless Children?


  • Total voters
    91
She just can't do it.

It's nothing to do with sacrifice or cowardice. It's not because she won't kill, she's done it before. Literally anybody else - Davros, Rassilon, Rani, Sil, Zodin, whoever - she'd have pushed the button without the slightest hesitation or remorse. There's not a judge or jury in the universe who would have convicted her in this case; even the Daleks would have looked the other way just the one time. But no matter what he does... no matter who or how many he kills or will kill if he escapes again... even if he wasted all her companions right in front of her... the Doctor just plain cannot bring herself to kill the Master.

Why that is will likely await another 'everything you know is wrong' game-changing revelation.

The difference between pushing the button and handing the button to someone you know will then press it is a pretty thin hair she's splitting there.

Her motivations don't matter, It was lame when they did in Classic Doctor Who and it's lame when they do it now. Remember how RTD addressed how the Doctor basically murdered his entire race to stop the Time War. Those days are gone.
That is a slightly different situation. The Time Lords and the Daleks were pretty much equally 'guilty' and locked in an unstoppable, irredeemable conflict which threatened all creation. In those circumstances, the Doctor could justify wiping them both out. Doesn't necessarily follow that he always supports the wiping out option.
 
I have hated the retcon that the Time Lords had to be wiped out just as much as the Daleks for ten years. The original telling (underlined by The Fires of Pompeii) was that the Time Lords had to be destroyed to save everybody else.

Watching the Timeless Children where the Doctor is agonizing over this same choice again I'm thinking "Wow, I guess this wasn't so hard this time around."

Four : "Do I have the right?"
Thirteen: "Yup!"
 
Even RTD still had similar situations to this in his episodes, like in Parting of the Ways when the Doctor had a way to defeat the Daleks, but the catch was it would also kill everyone on and in orbit of Earth. Ultimately, the Doctor refuses to do it.
But it was supposed to be a way to show that the Doctor wasn't always a genocide-inflicting individual, whose experience from the Time War did not make him immune to suffering and loss. Its juxtaposed his guilt from the Time War. That is... You know, decent, engaging storytelling!
 
I have hated the retcon that the Time Lords had to be wiped out just as much as the Daleks for ten years. The original telling (underlined by The Fires of Pompeii) was that the Time Lords had to be destroyed to save everybody else.

Watching the Timeless Children where the Doctor is agonizing over this same choice again I'm thinking "Wow, I guess this wasn't so hard this time around."

Four : "Do I have the right?"
Thirteen: "Yup!"

Indeed it wasn't. They were dead before they were Cyber-converted. The Capitol was a bombed-out ruin. There's nothing left to save.
 
I thought that maybe Gat and the woman from The Division we saw in the flashbacks were part of the Faction Paradox, and wouldn't it be cool if we did get to see humanoid TARDIS. Maybe Sexy could morph into one.

As long as she's played by Suranne Jones, I'm in.


OH and didn't Hartnell himself say in early episodes that HE BUILT the TARDIS and was human so that screws up everything too so suck that critics.

You might be thinking of the Peter Cushing Doctor?
 
Or perhaps mixing it up with the fact that TARDIS is a name Susan created?

I like the way that later growth of continuity means this places Susan quite high up in Time Lord society. Like a sort of Princess on the run.

Of course who needs growth when you can just pump it full of steroids, find blanks that aren’t there to fill in, and fuck shit up.

But yeah. That was cool for a while.
 
Not sure if this has been suggested yet, but we've seen the Doctor (11) stay in one place for years to protect people (Trenzalore). I think the old man was a future Doctor helping humans escape the Cyber War. He committed genocide by killing the Time Lords which could mean his past self ending up in prison for a crime they would commit later.
 
As long as she's played by Suranne Jones, I'm in.

Yes please she was fantastic as The TARDIS. would be terrific if she became The TARDIS. Just the concept of a walking talking TARDIS is bonkers and awesome at the same time. I mean she has a console room and all. So you must beam in and out of her. That just sounds so wrong :D

I like the way that later growth of continuity means this places Susan quite high up in Time Lord society. Like a sort of Princess on the run.

Of course who needs growth when you can just pump it full of steroids, find blanks that aren’t there to fill in, and fuck shit up.

But yeah. That was cool for a while.

Well, well, well. Didn't 12 say that he stole the moon and the President's Wife, though that was the daughter so maybe Susan was the President's daughter that he stole? He told Clara this.
 
Yes please she was fantastic as The TARDIS. would be terrific if she became The TARDIS. Just the concept of a walking talking TARDIS is bonkers and awesome at the same time. I mean she has a console room and all. So you must beam in and out of her. That just sounds so wrong :D



Well, well, well. Didn't 12 say that he stole the moon and the President's Wife, though that was the daughter so maybe Susan was the President's daughter that he stole? He told Clara this.

Yes. I rather liked that line. It was possibly a cloaked reference to some of the old book plots, where The Doctor (or The Other) was married to Patience, a Time Lady Who was basically Omegas ex wife. I haven’t read Cold Fusion where part of it appears, but I have read The Infinity Doctor (Which is all sorts of unclear whether it’s ‘real’ or a sidestep or what have you, but is very interesting, especially in relation to stuff that’s since turned up in the new series.) where she dies.
On the other hand, it fits in perfectly with the ‘romantic’ side (in the broad sense) of the Doctors character. The way this could even tie into the life at the heart of the Tardis is also kind of cool. But again, I haven’t really been feeling the presence and personality of the Tardis in the show the way I used to...but that’s a real subjective thing anyway.
 
Not sure if this has been suggested yet, but we've seen the Doctor (11) stay in one place for years to protect people (Trenzalore). I think the old man was a future Doctor helping humans escape the Cyber War. He committed genocide by killing the Time Lords which could mean his past self ending up in prison for a crime they would commit later.

Everyone’s the Doctor now. Wilf is secretly chameleon arched. Everyone. It’s a whole universe packed to the brim with Doctors. Even the helicopter in Battlefield was the Doctor, got to be all inclusive,
 
Wow this is bad. this is really bad.
http://www.doctorwhonews.net/2020/03/timeless-child-official-ratings.html
"The average viweing figures for 2020 now stands at 5.40m as oposed to 7.96m for Series 11 in 2018. This is lower than Series 10 which averaged 5.64m. It is still higher than the lowest rated season, season 26 which averaged 4.31m .\"

And Season 26 was amazing with "Ghostlight" and "Curse of Fenric".

Somewhere around here is a post I made talking about how history repeats and this Doctor was going to be heading into another wilderness years.

This last season was no season 26 though. We are still at season 24 levels.
 
Hard to compare classic and Nu Who viewing figures. On the one hand the UK population is around 10 million more now, on the other back when S26 aired there were literally 4 TV channels, no satellite TV or streaming services, yet still only circa 5 million people could be arsed to watch.
 
Hard to compare classic and Nu Who viewing figures. On the one hand the UK population is around 10 million more now, on the other back when S26 aired there were literally 4 TV channels, no satellite TV or streaming services, yet still only circa 5 million people could be arsed to watch.

There was satellite, it just wasn’t as big a thing as it later became. Rich peeps only. TNG went to Sky around the same time. Also, they put it on opposite Corrie, and didn’t count people watching it later (I.e kids who weren’t gonna win the fight with mum to watch it ‘live’.) the way we now count iPlayer.

It’s been shoddy this year...at least Capaldi era had the excuse of being bounced around the time slot.
 
The Timeless Children
The last episode of Series 12. Does everything change? Does nothing change? Who's the Doctor, really? Were there Cybermen on Gallifrey? Was the Master telling the truth? Where did the Timeless Child come from? What did Brendan have to do with anything? Some of these questions were answered. The Master pulls the Doctor through to Gallifrey, leaving the survivors, the 'fam' and Ko Sharmus to fend for themselves. In the Citadel, the Master hooks the Doctor up to the Matrix...
The Master uses the Matrix to tell the Doctor what he found out about the Timeless Child and the origin of the Time Lords. Or, what his view of it is. An ancient Gallifreyian Shabogan explorer, Tecteun discovers a child alone, next to a monument and a rift to another dimension. (Which she doesn't investigate when the child refuses to say where she came from?) It certainly increases the mystery. The two send more time exploring before returning to Gallifrey. And then it's revealed that regeneration comes from the child.
(And that Tecteun experimented on the child to splice the ability into the Gallifreyians. Certainly an interesting idea.) Then the big whammy. The Master then says that the Timeless Child is the Doctor! Like, what? Doesn't really make sense. But at the same time, the Master is talking to the Lone Cyberman. Telling him to come through the Barrier to Gallifrey so they can join forces. Ashad reveals his goal. Get rid of all organic life via a death particle in his chest, after turning the Cybermen into robots.
Although the Master says that isn't special. That is a particularly good scene. Yas, Graham and the others escape from the ship by pretending to be Cybermen. It's certainly inspired by earlier instances of companions pretending to be antagonists, but it works, and it was done well. It is also consistent with the development of the characters so far. The scenes in Ko Sharmus' base were also done well, with Ryan's 'slam dunk' destroying a group of Cybermen being a rather good call back. The Master compresses the Lone Cyberman, but the particle isn't activated (yet.)
Yas steps through to Gallifrey first. Consistent with the way her character has been going. I'd like to see more of her. The Master reveals that he's turning dead Time Lords into CyberLords. Interesting idea, and a rather good scene. But not as good as when the Doctor escaped from the Matrix by using her memories. (Ruth, Doctor and Morbius Doctors pre-Hartnell... Still, everything and yet, nothing.) The revelation hasn't really changed the Doctor. But escaping, the Master and his CyberLords was done well.
A House TARDIS in Sheffield, and a Tree TARDIS on the desolate planet. Judoon surprise! A good ending to this interesting episode. More in the Three or Two Part finale review below. 8/10.


Series 12 Finale Overall review
Mainly Ascension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children with the Lone Cyberman's appearances in The Haunting of Villa Diodati. The Lone Cybermen, was a very effective character as someone who tried to volunteer for conversion but was rejected part way. Self loathing. (That is a link thematically, to the Master being upset at the lies in Gallifrey's history. More on that below.) His goal to use the Cybermen to get rid of all organic life was developed as a lead from this. And this causes the clash with the Master's plans.
But the main plot in these episodes is the Timeless Child and the implications for the Doctor of what the Master had discovered. The Brendan subplot links in rather well as a type, a cover, for the TimelessDoctor's missions for the Division. From the child found on the road, until the memory wipe. The parallel between Tecteum's discovery of the Timeless Child and the father discovering Brendan is obvious. The Garda makes a good stand in for the Division. Of course, there was more to what was happening on Gallifrey than that.
The Doctor is on a mission to atone for her decision to give the Cyberium to the Lone Cyberman. That is what drives her as she fights the Lone Cyberman, and the Master. And it also links to Ko Sharmus setting off the death particle instead of her. He feels that he's more responsible for what's occuring with the Master and the CyberLords than the Doctor. His anguish as he ruefully considers that the Cyberium hadn't been sent back far enough was well done. It's he who sets off the particle and allows the Doctor to escape.
It is obvious that he stays at the Boundary because he feels that he doesn't deserve to interact with others, damaged by the war... On to the 'fam'. Each one of them gets something to do, even if it is hinted that Graham and Ryan may want to stop travelling, it's Yas who is the saddest upon disembarking from the House TARDIS. She wanted to continue travelling with the Doctor, and thinks she is dead. (So, will we see Yas moving into the House TARDIS, being rueful, wondering if the Doctor survived after all?)
Graham and Yas both encouraged the survivors through the ordeal on the escape ship, on the Cybercarrier and at the Boundary (and also were able to find the Panopticon in the ruins of the Citadel). As stated before, Yas leading the group through to Gallifrey is consistent with the way haer character had been going. She barely hesitates before stepping into the boundary. She then later argues with the Doctor about what to do. The Doctor tells her that she has to go. The survivors aren't developed much, but their joy at being on Earth was well done.
(Maybe there's future storytelling potential there?) There is not much more to say about the Judoon ending, but overall these two or three episodes was a very good way to end this series. More in the overall Series review. 8.25/10.
 
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