The Tamarians Would Have Made a Powerful Ally
- Thread starter Photon
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The Dominion: the beast at Tanagra. Deep Space Nine; Mirab, with sails unfurled. Kiazi's children, faces wet. Temba, your armed forces! Temba, his arms wide! Temba, alliance! The Dominion: Zinda, his face black, his eyes red! Picard and Dathon at El-Adrel. Uzani, his army at Lashmir! Temba, alliance!
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Shaka, when the walls fell.
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Shaka, when the walls fell.
That was awesome.
The Tamarians were quite advanced. They had at least one type of ship that was superior to the Galaxy class. We don't have a single idea about even where the Tamarian homeworld is or even if they have a significant space force. If they only had a few dozen ships and a coupleo f those large ships they wouldn't have been able to contribute much to the war at all.
The Talarians would have made a better ally. At least you can understand what they're talking about.
^ The Talarians are in a similar boat as the Tamarians, we don't know much about the size and power of their military and if they have a military large enough to do more than just defend their space. In terms of technology they were behind the Federation in terms of weapons and the ships of these we saw were significantly weaker than a Galaxy class starship.
I guess the best would be if allying with the Talarians freed up a good number of ships that would normally patrol the Federation-Talarian border. However, unlike the Tamarians the Talarians are xenophobic and would be less inclined to help one alien fight another alien.
I guess the best would be if allying with the Talarians freed up a good number of ships that would normally patrol the Federation-Talarian border. However, unlike the Tamarians the Talarians are xenophobic and would be less inclined to help one alien fight another alien.
The Tamarians were certainly on a technological level with the Federation but as others have pointed out, we have no idea of the size of their fleet. Given their isolation because of their inability to communicate with other races and their generally peaceful nature, it's probable that they had only a small, insignificant force. While their ship at El-Adrel was impressive by itself, it would have been little help in they only could field ten of them.
^ There should have been more episodes, or at least sub-plots, dealing with Sisko and the UFP, actively seeking alliances against the Dominion with other Alpha Quadrant powers.
The Dominion made non-aggression alliances with the Romulans, Tholians, and Miradorn. Why didn't the Federation and Klingons attempts to get the Gorn, Tamarians, Talarians, and others on their side.
Mention was made in Valiant of an attempt to get the Ferengi into the Federation Alliance, but what ever became of that attempt? We don't know.
What about the Tzenkethi? Why didn't either side try to get them as allies?
The Dominion made non-aggression alliances with the Romulans, Tholians, and Miradorn. Why didn't the Federation and Klingons attempts to get the Gorn, Tamarians, Talarians, and others on their side.
Mention was made in Valiant of an attempt to get the Ferengi into the Federation Alliance, but what ever became of that attempt? We don't know.
What about the Tzenkethi? Why didn't either side try to get them as allies?
I keep reading this topic title in the Federation narrator's voice from the PC game, "Birth of the Federation" and it's driving me bonkers.
I still don't understand why, if they *had* to meet the Dominion/Cardassian fleet in a pitched battle at close range before attempting to retake DS9, they didn't alter their strategy:
build a bunch of hastily-constructed, unmanned giant box-like barges. Fit them with poweful forward shields, large warp cores, and maybe some forward-launching torpedo tubes. Send them tightly spaced in front of the manned SF vessels to absorb fire. Race them into the enemy lines, then either have them fan out or send in one at a time. Release the antimatter containment, let the warp cores go boom, and take down as many ships as possible with each one, after they've absorbed as much fire as possible and have unleashed all their torpedoes. It seems quite a bit less costly in ships *and* manpower.
Most modern air forces have UAVs that can launch high-precision air-to-ground strikes. Making an unmanned spacecraft move would be a LOT easier than achieving atmospheric flight. Sisko et al. could coordinate them.
Oh well: takes away from the drama!
build a bunch of hastily-constructed, unmanned giant box-like barges. Fit them with poweful forward shields, large warp cores, and maybe some forward-launching torpedo tubes. Send them tightly spaced in front of the manned SF vessels to absorb fire. Race them into the enemy lines, then either have them fan out or send in one at a time. Release the antimatter containment, let the warp cores go boom, and take down as many ships as possible with each one, after they've absorbed as much fire as possible and have unleashed all their torpedoes. It seems quite a bit less costly in ships *and* manpower.
Most modern air forces have UAVs that can launch high-precision air-to-ground strikes. Making an unmanned spacecraft move would be a LOT easier than achieving atmospheric flight. Sisko et al. could coordinate them.
Oh well: takes away from the drama!
I don't think we ever once saw a Ferengi Marauder on DS9. I think one later showed up on Voyager!
Diplomacy with them was fun, because they used to answer in their daft language. Ah, memories.
I still don't understand why, if they *had* to meet the Dominion/Cardassian fleet in a pitched battle at close range before attempting to retake DS9, they didn't alter their strategy:
build a bunch of hastily-constructed, unmanned giant box-like barges. Fit them with poweful forward shields, large warp cores, and maybe some forward-launching torpedo tubes. Send them tightly spaced in front of the manned SF vessels to absorb fire. Race them into the enemy lines, then either have them fan out or send in one at a time. Release the antimatter containment, let the warp cores go boom, and take down as many ships as possible with each one, after they've absorbed as much fire as possible and have unleashed all their torpedoes. It seems quite a bit less costly in ships *and* manpower.
Most modern air forces have UAVs that can launch high-precision air-to-ground strikes. Making an unmanned spacecraft move would be a LOT easier than achieving atmospheric flight. Sisko et al. could coordinate them.
Oh well: takes away from the drama!
Given that they couldn't even assemble the full fleet I doubt they could build a bunch of new ships in the few hours to a day they had from when they realised they had to launch the attack.
As for unmanned ships, we saw the weaknesses of such technology. The Cardassian weapon platforms were pretty powerful and looked that they might hold off the alliance fleet with a zero loss of Cardassian life but the Federation managed to fool the platforms into destroying themselves. The manner in which shows that a sentient touch is required.
Even if you go the UAV route with control by a flesh and blood person in a removed/remote location you need to be able to maintain a signal between the two. In Operation Return the Dominion removed communication between the Federation ships for several hours, without flesh and blood control we're back to the issues as shown with the OWPs. Maybe that is why the Federation appeared to use manned attack fighters, even though they are a bit of a death trap for the crew.
All of the major military powers in the Quadrant were involved already. And even though more minor powers such as the Tzenkethi, Gorn, etc. may have sizable fleets, they probably thought it in their best interest to stay neutral.
Another thing, from practical standpoint, is cost. Say they introduced the Tzenkethi as a new Federation Alliance ally. New costumes and prosthetic make-up would have to be developed. New CGI ships or model ships would have to be developed. This obviously is not inexpensive.
Another thing, from practical standpoint, is cost. Say they introduced the Tzenkethi as a new Federation Alliance ally. New costumes and prosthetic make-up would have to be developed. New CGI ships or model ships would have to be developed. This obviously is not inexpensive.
You're right Jono, about not having time to construct such flying bombs once they'd realized they *had* to get to DS9 quickly to stop the mines from deactivating. But why hadn't they been building them already?
You cite a good example of the Cardassian orbital weapons platforms and their weakness. As a counterexample, consider how incredibly hard it was for the Dominion and Cardassians to bring down the autonomous Starfleet minefield, even though they were under no enemy threat/fire the whole several months.
Also: consider how tough the "flying bombs" were in VOY's "Warhead" and "Dreadnought". They were pretty tough creations that apparently could devastate a planet, not just a few ships. And it was incredibly hard in both cases to disable them, and they were way too sophisticated for the basic need of ramming a ship (which was their downfall).
Another thing: I thought many of the 600 ships making up the Starfleet attack force comprised mothballed, antiquated ships and hastily thrown together designs. At the least they could take several of those, set them at full speed autopilot, beam off the skeleton crew in time, and set them to autodestruct (ie, M/AM mixture to detonate their warp cores).
Again, though, that would take away from the drama, especially the Klingon last-minute rescue. But they could have made the enemy fleet even bigger, had the Allied force use up all of their flying bombs, and *still* be outnumbered in the aftermath. *That* would've been scary, especially if they were counting on such tactics and then had to engage anyway.
One thing I'll grant: I suspect neither side wanted to use the most sensible option of sending a wave of BVR missiles to take out DS9. They *both* always wanted to control it, not destroy it. (Though in the long run, I'd think it'd be less costly to just go ahead and destroy it and try to quickly rebuild another station.)
Another thing's for sure: given that neither side wanted to destroy or completely cripple DS9, it always gave DS9's defenders a HUGE advantage. IIRC, the only serious attempts to destroy it were the Romulan Warbird that wanted to collapse the wormhole, and the changeling-Bashir, who was going to destroy the entire system. I don't know why he'd want to do that unless he was sure it wouldn't also destroy the wormhole. ???
You cite a good example of the Cardassian orbital weapons platforms and their weakness. As a counterexample, consider how incredibly hard it was for the Dominion and Cardassians to bring down the autonomous Starfleet minefield, even though they were under no enemy threat/fire the whole several months.
Also: consider how tough the "flying bombs" were in VOY's "Warhead" and "Dreadnought". They were pretty tough creations that apparently could devastate a planet, not just a few ships. And it was incredibly hard in both cases to disable them, and they were way too sophisticated for the basic need of ramming a ship (which was their downfall).
Another thing: I thought many of the 600 ships making up the Starfleet attack force comprised mothballed, antiquated ships and hastily thrown together designs. At the least they could take several of those, set them at full speed autopilot, beam off the skeleton crew in time, and set them to autodestruct (ie, M/AM mixture to detonate their warp cores).
Again, though, that would take away from the drama, especially the Klingon last-minute rescue. But they could have made the enemy fleet even bigger, had the Allied force use up all of their flying bombs, and *still* be outnumbered in the aftermath. *That* would've been scary, especially if they were counting on such tactics and then had to engage anyway.
One thing I'll grant: I suspect neither side wanted to use the most sensible option of sending a wave of BVR missiles to take out DS9. They *both* always wanted to control it, not destroy it. (Though in the long run, I'd think it'd be less costly to just go ahead and destroy it and try to quickly rebuild another station.)
Another thing's for sure: given that neither side wanted to destroy or completely cripple DS9, it always gave DS9's defenders a HUGE advantage. IIRC, the only serious attempts to destroy it were the Romulan Warbird that wanted to collapse the wormhole, and the changeling-Bashir, who was going to destroy the entire system. I don't know why he'd want to do that unless he was sure it wouldn't also destroy the wormhole. ???
They didn't show the fall of Betazed or ever show most UFP races (such as the Tellarite captain that Klingon boasted of killing).
I agree it probably would've only made things more confusing to even get off-screen help from other species/factions, but they could have mentioned them had they wanted to (like in "Adversary").
Probably because by the time they explained what they needed from them, the war would have been over.
Oh my god. Seriously, no one ever replied to this thread again after that picture?
That is... amazing.
That is... amazing.
