News The Summer of Mark Hamill's Discontent

[Infern0]

Looks like he's mainly upset that he didn't get to work with Harrison again and that he's barely in TFA so he didn't get to work with Carrie as much either. As someone who truly loved working with both of them I can see what he means. I don't think he's mad at the sequel trilogy. I do love the films, I think TLJ is the best film of the franchise. But I do wish we had just one scene with Han, Luke and Leia.

You know I suspected it, but you just confirmed it.

 

[Infern0]

^ That "audience score" was deliberately sabotaged.

And Rotten Tomatoes scores mean nothing anyway.

The movie wasn't good, most unbiased reviewers who don't have a "woke" agenda said as much, it is what it is.

not everything is a conspiracy it just wasn't a good movie.

You may argue it was good for diversity or feminism but as a MOVIE it just wasn't good

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, didn't realize how bad RT was in its critics and the like:
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/whi...hould-i-trust-rotten-tomatoes-imdb-metacritic

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-r...-for-movie-reviews_b_59000a34e4b06feec8ac91c6

 

[Ithekro]

The Last Jedi's fate in the like/dislike scale of time will ultimately be determined by The Rise of Skywalker and how the trilogy works as a whole. Right now its at the 1982 period of The Empire Strikes Back in terms of how people see it. After Return of the Jedi came out, than the opinions on Empire shifted once the payoff and other things were resolved. But being the second act of a three part play is the hardest thing to be when you don't have the third act yet.

 

[Awesome Possum]

You know I suspected it, but you just confirmed it.

I have mentioned it multiple times before. I find the fact that you even care bizarre and obsessive. Yeah, I liked a movie that you don't, whoopie-fucking-doo.

Grow up.

 

[Infern0]

I have mentioned it multiple times before. I find the fact that you even care bizarre and obsessive. Yeah, I liked a movie that you don't, whoopie-fucking-doo.

Grow up.

Because every post I ever see of yours is meme worthy

Tbh

 

[ichab]

^ That "audience score" was deliberately sabotaged.

By who ? Star Trek fans? Battlestar Galactica fans? Why didnt they do the same to TFA or Rogue One, which scored very high with audiences? Show your evidence.

And Rotten Tomatoes scores mean nothing anyway.

Says who? Metacritic had a similiar reaction. Most critics loved it while most audiences didn't. And if you try to say that metacritic doesn't matter either then I have to ask what in your world does matter when it comes to judging an audience perception of a movie

 

[Infern0]

By who ? Star Trek fans? Battlestar Galactica fans? Why didnt they do the same to TFA or Rogue One, which scored very high with audiences? Show your evidence.



Says who? Metacritic had a similiar reaction. Most critics loved it while most audiences didn't. And if you try to say that metacritic doesn't matter either then I have to ask what in your world does matter when it comes to judging an audience perception of a movie

If one of "those" movies gets poor scores it's cos of sabotage by "trolls" ......errtime

 

[Set Harth]

Right now its at the 1982 period of The Empire Strikes Back in terms of how people see it. After Return of the Jedi came out, than the opinions on Empire shifted once the payoff and other things were resolved.

I don't recall TESB being viewed in a negative light prior to ROTJ, only to be reevaluated after ROTJ came out. I've never heard of such a thing. Then again, I was a kid at the time, so I guess I had little to no concept of what was going on in the realm of adult film criticism ( professional or otherwise ).

I want to say TESB was generally received more positively and was not particularly divisive.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It's great how we have so many free"thinkers" who base their opinions on YouTube videos that just tell them exactly what they want to hear and that everyone who tells them different is just lying for social points. It's what everyone in any cult convinces themselves and most are too far gone to even realize utterly brainwashed they are, a bunch of individuals telling it exactly how it is, according to a video they saw, and all parroting the exact same talking points over and over again. Nothing new, nothing ever original ever because they don't have any original ideas or thoughts on their own because the videos never give them one. It's pathetic and these poor deluded fools try to act like internet badasses as if that means anything other than other losers.

 

[Infern0]

I don't recall TESB being viewed in a negative light prior to ROTJ, only to be reevaluated after ROTJ came out. I've never heard of such a thing. Then again, I was a kid at the time, so I guess I had little to no concept of what was going on in the realm of adult film criticism ( professional or otherwise ).

I want to say TESB was generally received more positively and was not particularly divisive.

Even TFA was generally very well recieved and that was only 2 years prior

As if the dark tone would be a reason for people not to like the movie, the dark night etc have disproved that many times.

TLJ made Luke a joke, had too many cheesy lines in it and the plot was full of holes, and Canto bight...eugh

There were some good things about it I actually liked the darker tone, holdo doing the kamikaze was incredibly cool but they ruined it with cringe and things not making sense and yet again making an OG a loser and then killing them off.

Our likeable characters in Finn, poe and Rose (I like her just not that one line) all look like goofballs.

I could go on but to me TLJ was a dissapointing mixed bag

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't recall TESB being viewed in a negative light prior to ROTJ, only to be reevaluated after ROTJ came out. I've never heard of such a thing. Then again, I was a kid at the time, so I guess I had little to no concept of what was going on in the realm of adult film criticism ( professional or otherwise ).

I want to say TESB was generally received more positively and was not particularly divisive.

Actually opinions at the time were very mixed. Here are some fan reactions from Starlog magazine.

Thankfully, Archive.org has a collection of Starlog, so let’s take a look at issues #39-41. What were the fans saying?

As with The Last Jedi, fan reaction was mixed to say the least. Some felt it was better than the first one, some enjoyed it but had complaints, and some were disappointed. But what’s most interesting is how specific comments or criticisms mirror those of The Last Jedi…

[Spoilers for The Last Jedi and The Empire Strikes Back follow.]


That’s Not True, That’s Impossible
There’s been speculation online about whether or not it’s true that Rey’s parents were really just nobody. I mean, Kylo Ren is a bad guy, he could have been lying. It turns out some fans were similarly skeptical about the revelation of Luke’s father.

Robert L. Beedy-Scarola:

Is Luke related to Vader? Most think so now that Vader came right out and said it. Well, I say, do you believe everything you hear? Vader may have lied just to enlist Luke to his side. Vader would then dispose of Luke once he got what he wanted.

Just how many fans remained in denial until Return Of The Jedi? It’s hard to say without a published poll, but accounts from people “who were there” posted on Reddit and Quorasuggest it was a fairly high amount. One historical record that backs this up is a Seton Hall University 1981 yearbook account of David Proust’s visit:

The answer to the question which haunted millions since the release of the movie “The Empire Strikes Back” was answered by an expert, November 11, 1980.

David Proust, who portrayed Darth Vader in “Star Wars” and the current sci-fi epic laid it on the line.

“I am Luke Skywalker’s father,” he said.

Did you feel like The Last Jedi left too many unanswered questions? Empire Strikes Backviewers felt the same.

Sean Bernard:

I know they wanted to leave something to settle in the other sequels, but they left a little too much. For instance, Han Solo’s predicament. The movie should not have ended until Han was either killed by Boba Fett or Jabba or rescued by Lando Calrissian or Chewbacca, the former, preferably. Also, the fate of Bespin is not told. Was it taken by Lando’s troops, taken by Imperial troops or destroyed by Vader? I like Lando Calrissian and Billy Dee Williams was very good playing the part.

There was also the unresolved question of there being “another.” Fans speculated away.

Arlene Bahrenburg:

And, one of the biggest questions in my mind is who is Yoda’s “other” student? Could it possibly be a girl — a love interest for Luke? I have 1,095 days in which to draw my own conclusions.

Bill Smith:

Could it be Vader himself? Considering that there was an equilibrium of power between the good and dark sides of the Force, it would not be impossible to turn Vader into the antithesis of what he is now, especially if Luke (who, except for Yoda may be the most powerful member of the good side of the Force) is truly his son.

Keith Hoffman:

I suggest Princess Leia. She is young enough for the training; she withstood Darth Vader’s tortures; she is dedicated to the cause; Princess Leia, not Lando, “heard” Luke’s cries for help; Han Solo is not in shape to be going anywhere for awhile and he is too old. I wouldn’t be surprised if in the third film, Leia, instead of Luke, destroys the Emperor. Of course, it will be the year 2000 before we find out.

Keith was a little off in his guess on the release year of Return Of The Jedi, but was surprisingly close on the release year of the first prequel.

The “Ship” That Made The Kessel Run In…
Some modern fans Star Wars have expressed disappointment about their favorite “ship” being invalidated. There were 1980s fans who expressed the same disappointment (before Return Of The Jedi invented the sibling connection).


Carol Kane:

C’mon Leia, why don’t you take a look around? Can’t you see what Luke is up against? You could have a “nice guy” like him. Instead, you are turning your back on him. Forget that it was Luke that saved you from having your atoms scattered throughout the galaxy. Forget that it was Luke, and not Han Solo, that wanted you rescued from the Death Star detention area. But you don’t need to remember all that, Leia. As long as hot-lips Han is around, who needs Luke anyway?

Fans even disagreed about the “I know” line.

Jeannette Vogelpohl:

Somebody should tell Harrison Ford that when a woman tells a man, “I love you,” “I know” is not an acceptable response. That scene was not funny, it was infuriating.

Nancy Savula:

Empire Strikes Back is fantastic. The special effects are superb. And Han Solo’s “I know” is the best line since Rhett Butler’s “My dear, I don’t give a damn.” I love it.

There are modern fans believe politics didn’t enter geek culture until the internet age, but Starlog proves it was there much earlier.

Richard Hess:

George Lucas has made a movie even more racist and sexist than the first. I would think that Billy Dee Williams would resent being the token black in the film. Also, there was only one other woman, apart from Carrie Fisher, in the movie.

If you’re racking your brain to remember that other woman in Empire Strikes Back, the author was likely referring to Brigette Kahn’s “Other Rebel Officer,” the only other woman with a speaking line.

I Have A Bad Feeling About This
Starlog staff writer David Gerrold presented his own set of criticisms in a review entitled “Empire Strikes Out.” Despite the punchy headline, he didn’t actually hate it; he just didn’t think it was amazing as mainstream critics were saying.

I liked it. I really did. I just didn’t like it enough.

Just about every other critic in the country has been telling you how good the picture is; they’ve been falling over themselves to tell you. It’s embarrassing. I feel guilty for not liking it as much as I’m supposed to.

His initial criticisms are those of a hard science fiction fan pointing out scientific inaccuracies. For example, when the Millennium Falcon lands inside that giant space slug on an asteroid, there shouldn’t be any gravity that they can just walk around, and they should be wearing suits to protect them from the lack of atmosphere. The latter problem returns in The Last Jedi when Leia is blown into space.

Gerrold also wonders how a space slug can survive on an asteroid without a food source, how the Falcon can get from the Hoth system to the Bespin system when the hyperdrive is broken, and a few other smaller nitpicks that he dismisses himself as nitpicks for a movie that’s more science fantasy than science fiction.

When he gets to his story criticisms, things become more subjective. He feels that the lack of a McGuffin — the thing that everyone is after, like the first movie’s plans to the Death Star — weakens the sequel. He feels that the movie is too fast paced, and that the pacing led to an unsatisfying climax. He felt like Luke didn’t actually grow or learn anything, and that Yoda should’ve put the ship right back where it was after lifting it up, to make Luke learn to do it himself.

But his criticisms of the story’s structure are what I found most fascinating:

Structurally, the film is flawed by its need to imitate its predecessor’s “formula” of fast-paced cross-cutting. We cut back and forth between Luke and Yoda on Dagobah and Leia and Han in the asteroids, and the time sense of both sets of events is distorted. How long were Han and Leia fleeing? How long is Luke studying?

Cutting between different stories happening in different places is so commonplace today that we take it for granted, but back then it was still considered a bit avant garde, confusing, or just bad craft. George Lucas first played with this technique with American Graffiti, and in the documentary The Making Of American Graffiti he explains:

It was one of the first movies to ever tell four stories simultaneously and have the four stories not really be connected with each other. The studio said that was impossible, you can’t do that. You have to tell one story, then the next story, and the next story.

Well, now, all of television is done that way, I mean, almost every television show has got that style. But at the time, it was extremely controversial. And one of the reasons a lot of studios wouldn’t touch it is because I was trying to intercut these four stories.

People don’t realize, with these kinds of movies … it’s because they’re fresh and they’re different and they’re experimental that, I think, people still like to watch them. Now, the whole industry sort of moves in that direction and they become the standard, but people forget that at the time those movies were made, especially American Graffiti, it was a very avant garde movie.

Gerrold’s complaint about Empire Strikes Back’s structure mirrors the studios who passed on American Graffiti:

Why not stay with Han and Leia until they leave the asteroid and head for the Bespin system, then cut to Luke arriving at Dagobah and stay with him until he leaves?

Changes the pace? Yes, it slows it down. It also suggests some scale of distance between these places. (Crosscutting also implies simultaneity — a concept which most modern physicists say is impossible, especially on an astronomical scale. Sorry.)

 

[Set Harth]

Simultaneity is impossible?

Uh, no, that's complete bullshit, Gerrold. And the scale is irrelevant. Sorry.

holdo doing the kamikaze was incredibly cool

There are several problems with it.

1) It should have been Ackbar or 3PO, someone the audience had reason to care about, not someone we basically just met. In fact, it definitely should have been a droid. Why needlessly sacrifice a living being, when we're supposed to believe the Resistance is so short-handed to begin with? And an alleged military leader at that? It doesn't make any sense.

2) If this kind of maneuver is a thing, why have we never seen it before in the series? Why wasn't it used in other situations where it would have been applicable?

 

[Ithekro]

Well that was a long time ago.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't recall TESB being viewed in a negative light prior to ROTJ, only to be reevaluated after ROTJ came out. I've never heard of such a thing. Then again, I was a kid at the time, so I guess I had little to no concept of what was going on in the realm of adult film criticism ( professional or otherwise ).

I want to say TESB was generally received more positively and was not particularly divisive.

Small sampling for fun
https://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-how-fans-reacted-to-the-empire-strikes-back-in-19-1821551259

ETA: Whoops, missed @Awesome Possum posting same thing.

 

[Set Harth]

Most critics loved it while most audiences didn't.

It's almost as if when you go from TESB to TLJ the critics' position and the common people's position switch places.

 

[Infern0]

It's great how we have so many free"thinkers" who base their opinions on YouTube videos that just tell them exactly what they want to hear and that everyone who tells them different is just lying for social points. It's what everyone in any cult convinces themselves and most are too far gone to even realize utterly brainwashed they are, a bunch of individuals telling it exactly how it is, according to a video they saw, and all parroting the exact same talking points over and over again. Nothing new, nothing ever original ever because they don't have any original ideas or thoughts on their own because the videos never give them one. It's pathetic and these poor deluded fools try to act like internet badasses as if that means anything other than other losers.

So anyone who doesn't like a movie that has feminist and diversity undertones for ANY reason is a "poor deluded fool"

I like star trek discovery which is apparently one of those shows, and others too, because they are GOOD

I don't like ghostbusters or TLJ and do you know why? Because they suck

What's sad is the SJW defence force who proclaim any movie or show with these themes as flawless, if you dont like them you are a stupid trump supporter and all negative comments are from trolls, when in the case of the two i pointed out, actually they are just plain not good movies

 

[Agony_Boothb]

So anyone who doesn't like a movie that has feminist and diversity undertones for ANY reason is a "poor deluded fool"

I like star trek discovery which is apparently one of those shows, and others too, because they are GOOD

I don't like ghostbusters or TLJ and do you know why? Because they suck

What's sad is the SJW defence force who proclaim any movie or show with these themes as flawless, if you dont like them you are a stupid trump supporter and all negative comments are from trolls, when in the case of the two i pointed out, actually they are just plain not good movies

I'm with you on this. TLJ is a terrible movie, and I say this as someone who loves Laura Dern, Oscar Isaacs and animals being freed from servitude.

When you have to resort to calling someone a 'deluded fool' because they don't like the same movie as you, the argument is already lost.

 

[Awesome Possum]

So anyone who doesn't like a movie that has feminist and diversity undertones for ANY reason is a "poor deluded fool"

I like star trek discovery which is apparently one of those shows, and others too, because they are GOOD

I don't like ghostbusters or TLJ and do you know why? Because they suck

What's sad is the SJW defence force who proclaim any movie or show with these themes as flawless, if you dont like them you are a stupid trump supporter and all negative comments are from trolls, when in the case of the two i pointed out, actually they are just plain not good movies

Have you taken your redpill today?


This is why I can't take you seriously. Ooh diversity scary.

Your world is small and weak, that's why you're so afraid of anything different. It's sad, really sad.

 

[Ithekro]

Well. We have about eight more months before we see what JJ brings with TRoS and if that effects how people view TLJ at all. It wouldn't be the first, nor last, time another movie coming out shifted the opinions of the previous movie. For Good or Bad.