Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Took the words right out of my mouth.
The State of Star Trek Literature
- Thread starter Sxottlan
- Start date
He reacted exactly the way he needed to. The OP was taking some big swings and demonstrating a lack of faith.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
"pretty big swings"? "lack of faith"? Really?
I was reading the thread as it was unfolding and that was how the discussion presented itself to me, so yeah, I was cheering for William Leisner when he defended the authors. You don't critique a work of fiction that's not even written/finished/published yet.
One quite reasonably could.
For example, I can tell that I won't care for the upcoming Green Hornet film. As a fan of the original property, I can't associate the character with Seth Rogen as he appears in the images leaked from the set (probably, I can't associate Britt Reid with him at all).
The film has yet to be released, but I have good reason to suspect I will dislike it - and I can offer useful criticism of the appearance of the character.
Your claim isn't sufficiently invariably true to be stated as an absolute.
Except in the art of debating, if you don't present statements as absolutes, the opposition will pounce on your "probably", "maybe" and "sometimes" as a weakness. The absolute of the discussion, though, was that the comments of the OP really grated on me, and obviously on WL as well.
I hope you end up being pleasantly surprised by the new "Green Hornet". Are you not even curious to see it? (My friends and I suspected William Shatner's ST V was gonna be a car crash, but we went anyway, enjoy sniggering - and got a few good things out of it as well. But at least we gave him the chance to present his vision without writing to him beforehand and telling him he was a bum for giving Spock a half brother.)
I think where we got bent was over how MNM simplified the conflict. I'm not a Trek writer and it kinda annoyed me too. Simply stating that the creation was just to be the next Big Bad is a swipe at the Trek Lit Universe as a whole.
Is the Pact going to be a new antagonist? Absolutely. But as CB stated, that holds so many different possibilities. They could explore a cold war route as well as direct conflict. But another poster compared it to NATO and the Warsaw Pact. All the countries in both those organizations don't and didn't get along perfectly. I personally would love to see stories about how the Federation will react as they learn more about the Pact's actions. Wouldn't it be very Trek to see Titan competing with a Pact vessel over exploration? No armed conflict, just scientific? How is the Federation going to react to ongoing tension between the two Romulan states now that ones a direct ally via the Khitomer Accords? The possibilities and story arcs are endless and not simplified at all. Anyone who would state so (and in this case it was MNM) IS simplifying it too much. And in doing so he did insult and offend not only the writers, but readers like me who think of the Trek universe as more than simply "who's the Big Bad for us to fist-fight?".
Is the Pact going to be a new antagonist? Absolutely. But as CB stated, that holds so many different possibilities. They could explore a cold war route as well as direct conflict. But another poster compared it to NATO and the Warsaw Pact. All the countries in both those organizations don't and didn't get along perfectly. I personally would love to see stories about how the Federation will react as they learn more about the Pact's actions. Wouldn't it be very Trek to see Titan competing with a Pact vessel over exploration? No armed conflict, just scientific? How is the Federation going to react to ongoing tension between the two Romulan states now that ones a direct ally via the Khitomer Accords? The possibilities and story arcs are endless and not simplified at all. Anyone who would state so (and in this case it was MNM) IS simplifying it too much. And in doing so he did insult and offend not only the writers, but readers like me who think of the Trek universe as more than simply "who's the Big Bad for us to fist-fight?".
Examples of alien civilizations who can have antagonistic relations with the Federation/Starfleet without actually being enemies:
The Ferengi: Initial attempts to make them a "big bad" fizzled, and they came into their own as more of a disreputable neighbor -- not in direct conflict with the Federation but having very different values that often clashed with the values of Starfleet characters and led them to approach various situations in conflicting ways.
The Bajorans: Nominally allies of the UFP, they often mistrusted its motives, resisted becoming too dependent on its benevolence, and had a very different set of beliefs and worldviews as well as different priorities that sometimes put them at odds with the Starfleet characters.
And in the literature, you have civilizations like the Caeliar from Destiny, pacifists with benevolent motives but nonetheless major antagonists to the Starfleet characters because of their intractably different priorities, and the Pa'haquel from Orion's Hounds, who had no quarrel with Starfleet but had values that clashed sharply with theirs and wouldn't hold back if Starfleet got in their way.
Story conflict can come from many things other than military or political enmity. It can come simply from very different worldviews or priorities, or fundamentally incompatible goals. And both filmed and prose Trek are full of plenty of examples of that. So with all that precedent, it just doesn't make sense to say that there's no point in creating a new galactic power if they aren't just military foes.
The Ferengi: Initial attempts to make them a "big bad" fizzled, and they came into their own as more of a disreputable neighbor -- not in direct conflict with the Federation but having very different values that often clashed with the values of Starfleet characters and led them to approach various situations in conflicting ways.
The Bajorans: Nominally allies of the UFP, they often mistrusted its motives, resisted becoming too dependent on its benevolence, and had a very different set of beliefs and worldviews as well as different priorities that sometimes put them at odds with the Starfleet characters.
And in the literature, you have civilizations like the Caeliar from Destiny, pacifists with benevolent motives but nonetheless major antagonists to the Starfleet characters because of their intractably different priorities, and the Pa'haquel from Orion's Hounds, who had no quarrel with Starfleet but had values that clashed sharply with theirs and wouldn't hold back if Starfleet got in their way.
Story conflict can come from many things other than military or political enmity. It can come simply from very different worldviews or priorities, or fundamentally incompatible goals. And both filmed and prose Trek are full of plenty of examples of that. So with all that precedent, it just doesn't make sense to say that there's no point in creating a new galactic power if they aren't just military foes.
Going back to the more general question, I'm at a stage where I just past Trek books by, I see nothing in the cover blurs or descriptions that makes me want to pick them up.
The last few books I read, I found to be passable but that's about it and the direction of the DS9 books I find to be seriously boring.
The last few books I read, I found to be passable but that's about it and the direction of the DS9 books I find to be seriously boring.
Very well all things considered. (Meaning the economy, and the editorial shakeup.)
Like others I'm concerned about the shrinking shelf space of Trek, but I figure if I keep buying them, they'll keep selling them. Or, at least, I'm doing my part.
The quality of the books has for the most part been good.
The Never Ending Sacrifice is easily my favorite book of the year. I read it immediately after the Terok Nor trilogy (was doing some catchup) and those led right into it very naturally.
The two new Voyager books. Janeway's death was dumb, but those books took it and did good things with it, as far as showing its effect on the rest of the crew.
I've been mostly happy with Destiny and the post-Destiny stuff. I think starting with Greater than the Sum the TNG relaunch finally turned around.
Titan and Vanguard have been good too. And, this year's been a good one for this old-school TOS fan. Lots of TOS.
I have pretty broad taste and interests in Trek, and it feels like there's been a good mix.
I am surprised people didn't like Over a Torrent Sea. I liked that one a lot.
I really like the Aventine. More please.
I haven't read a bad book since Before Dishonour. (Someone else said that and I'll just echo it.) I haven't read Inception yet; its on my to-be-read pile.
My real disappointments are what we haven't seen.
I really miss the old days when we got a new TNG novel and a new TOS novel every month or every other month. That was probably too many, and it often felt like they were running out of ideas. But these days we get a new TOS novel (a real Kirk-Spock-McCoy story, not a "lost era" tale of one sort or another) about once every few years. That's not enough.
Troublesome Minds was good but I'd like to see them more often. This has been a GREAT year for TOS, but none of 2010 books have actually been Kirk-Spock-McCoy on the Enterprise. I know the JJ-verse novels would have been this, but not only were they canceled, but I prefer the classic universe.
Similarly - the TNG crew is sort of "broken up" now. I'd like a Picard-Riker-Data era story or two. I miss those "old" days; would be nice to see some fresh trek of that era.
DS9 relaunch. Where did it go? I've enjoyed what there's been of it, and yes I did read and like The Soul Key. But I want more. Too many plotlines not tied up, not to mention seeing how Dax gets her own command. And we're just going to be jumped up to "present day"? I'd like to see a novel or two fill in the gap and finish the DS9-R storylines.
I do agree with the "too much doom and gloom will ruin Trek" sentiment. I just don't agree that we're there yet. (But, we could still end up there.)
I was an avid Star Wars reader for a long time. I loved the NJO series, but mainly because of its hopefulness for the future, despite the grim story. By the end I was completely beaten down by the doom and gloom, and what did they do? Turn a beloved main character into a sith lord and plunge the galaxy into yet another horrible war. (Guess that's why the call it Star WARS huh?) I stopped reading.
Destiny was great and the current shook-up state of affairs is fine for a while. But there needs to still be hopefulness. Please don't lose that and plunge us into despair. (I still have faith that's not what the Typhon Pact will be.)
I'm disappointed that the Enterprise isn't getting to explore strange new worlds, and they're just stuck doing cleanup.
I'm very happy that Titan, Voyager, and Vanguard are still doing exploration stories. Eventually the Enterprise needs to get back to exploring, too.
Losing Marco and Margaret is the best answer I've seen. I'll go with that one.
The JJverse novel cancelation was a bad idea. Personally I wish they'd done more to capitalize on the movie and get people reading the books. I wish they'd had a series of tie-ins ready for when the movie was out.
I know none of that is Pocket's fault - its more at CBS or at Bad Robot. I just wish they'd done more cross-promotion. George Lucas is a genius at licensing and cross promotion, say what you will about his storytelling.
I wish the SCE reprints would go back to mass market paperback. Generally speaking I don't buy trade paperback.
The big publishing gap kinda sucks this year, but its actually a good thing for me. My to-read pile is way too big. If anything, Pocket has been putting out too many high quality books the past few years, its been hard to keep up. (And that's a good problem to have.)
Out of the last four novels I've purchased (Synthesis, Precipice, Inception, and Unspoken Truths,) two were excellent reads and I regret buying the other two.
Before that, I enjoyed Losing the Peace as much as I could have, seeing that it was a TNG novel and that's my least favorite crew. But I really liked the Beverly story.
It's no secret how much I enjoyed Full Circle and Unworthy.
I quit reading DS9R after Warpath. I started Fearful Symmetry, but lost interest. I had no desire to read the next two after it. But I have hope! I'm looking forward to DRG3's upcoming DS9R contribution.
Next two? There was only one Relaunch novel after Fearful Symmetry: Soul Key.
If you mean The Never-Ending Sacrifice as the second novel, that one isn't a Relaunch novel, so if you're only reason to not read it was that you thought it was part of the Relaunch, you should reconsider, because it easily was the best Star Trek novel of the last year.
DorkBoy [TM];4007118 said:
That was a really long and detailed post; thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I don't want it to seem like I'm just bitching about one minor detail and ignoring the rest. Your thoughts were fun to read, and I agree with most of it.
I just wanted to mention here that Destiny does give us the backstory for Ezri becoming captain, and it's been said a couple times that that's all they intend to do with that story. It's already pretty clearly summarized; making it into a novel or short story would be redundant, I think. I would've supported making a second prologue or flashback or something like that to Destiny that told that bit in narrative form, but that didn't happen, and overall I'm cool with it.
Thanks for that clarification. I'll certainly take your recommendation under advisement and possibly add it to my "What should I read this summer?" list.
^ Oh, yes, definitely do. It's amazing. It's about this guy: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Rugal so it starts in that episode, early 2nd season, and covers his story through the end of the dominion war and into the relaunch era, I forget exactly how far. But it's totally independent, and extremely awesome.
Well... it doesn't tie into the main story of the relaunch, and it mostly occurs beforehand - but like The Live of Dax and The Left Hand of Destiny, it's meant to be part of the same continuity.
(Or is this another book that needs to be added onto the "list of books printed with the wrong logo" list like Nightshade?)
Yeah, parts of it play during the time frame of the Relaunch, but IMO the story is independent from its story arcs without contradicted them.
I think that is where I got to, I have a vague feeling I started reading Fearful Symmetry and then put it down.
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