The State of Star Trek Literature

[Ferd Burfel]

I'm growing weary of reading Titan books and not getting any damn Riker! He's a minor character in his own series! I don't mind each new book exploring a new character, but explore him too!

Titan is an ensemble series, not a star-driven series. The emphasis varies from book to book. And I think Riker's been as much a featured player as anyone else. I certainly focused on him prominently in both my TTN novels.

I'm not saying you didn't. I was speaking generally about the series as a whole. And I'm reading your second book now, and I have to very much say that right from the beginning I agree with what you said. As you are one of my favorite authors, I would expect nothing less. And I get the point about it being ensemble. And that is awesome. I just merely think (and it is my opinion) that the Captain is not always featured that much. Even in an ensemble he is still the top of the ship. I feel I know more about Vale than I do him. So I like exploring the varying characters, I just want him to have a larger role. Am I nuts? Am I wrong? Maybe. I'll concede maybe I'm just a whiny baby. Maybe everyone else disagrees with me about this, but I'm just throwing my feelings out there.

And I can't wait for the Geordi book. But like Riker, I feel he's been underused thus far. I'm glad he is getting his own story, but I'd have settled for a larger role in all of the ones already out versus him being a minor character UNTIL he got his own book. Again, it's just my opinion and I am in no way saying that my perception is, or should be, everyone elses.

 

[MNM]

they may not turn out to be enemies but the tholian ambassador has already described themselves as being "hostile".

Yes, the Tholians are hostile, but that doesn't mean the whole Pact is.

Well along with the Tholians, the Kinshaya are hostile to the Klingons, the Romulans are hostile to both the Federation and Klingons. Thats half of the Pact at least.

I dont really see the problem in describing the Pact as a probable "enemy" of the Federation. It might be a cold war/rival powers competing scenario rather than an all out war, but it's not about to be all flowers and picnics between them.

 

[Christopher]

Well along with the Tholians, the Kinshaya are hostile to the Klingons, the Romulans are hostile to both the Federation and Klingons. Thats half of the Pact at least.

The Romulans have historically been hostile to those powers, but they were allies in the last year or so of the Dominion War, and Nemesis indicated that the Romulan Senate's relations with the UFP had remained basically peaceful or at least neutral since the war (since the Senate's resistance to the military's desire for renewed aggression was what drove the military to ally with Shinzon in assassinating the Senate). True, the Romulan Star Empire is led by Tal'Aura, a member of that militant sect, and she's an enemy to Donatra of the Imperial Romulan State, which is on friendly terms with the Federation. So there are grounds for perceiving hostility there, but it would also be a mistake to treat each entire civilization as a monolithic bloc, unchanging over time. Romulan politicians seem to shift allegiances frequently as it suits their ambitions.

Certainly nobody's saying that relations between the UFP and the Pact are going to be all flowers and candy. There's going to be a lot of tension. But it has the potential to go either way. There are a lot of different factions within the Pact -- six species, probably each with multiple internal factions of its own -- and they're going to be jockeying for advantage in this newborn alliance. And not every agenda they have is going to be about the Federation or the Klingons or the Romulans. Every state has internal concerns as well as external ones. There are sure to be factions within the Pact that think enmity with the UFP or the Klingons is a good idea, others that think cooperation with the UFP or the Klingons is a good idea, and others that are more concerned with jockeying for status within the Pact itself and couldn't care less about the UFP or the Klingons. And it's too early to say which factions will come out ahead.

No question that's a turbulent and dangerous situation. But it's far too simplistic to treat this nascent partnership of six contentious, independent civilizations as merely "the enemy." It's too early to say what they'll turn out to be. And that's what makes it so interesting.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

No question that's a turbulent and dangerous situation. But it's far too simplistic to treat this nascent partnership of six contentious, independent civilizations as merely "the enemy." It's too early to say what they'll turn out to be. And that's what makes it so interesting.

I'd also point out that if you look at the Typhon Pact as a kind of historical parallel -- the Federation and Klingons and their allies as NATO, the Typhon Pact as the Warsaw Pact -- there may be no payoff or conclusion to the Typhon Pact for years, even decades. Look at how long it took to get from the first encounter with the Dominion to shots being fired in a full-scale war. Look at how long the Federation and Klingons had rival interests. History has a long view. For all we know, the Typhon Pact books don't represent the beginning and end of the story; they may, rather, be a building up and a redefinition of these powers, to establish them as long-term antagonists, with interests that may intersect with or be opposite of the Federation's, and lay the groundwork for stories that could play out over the next few decades of of in-universe time.

 

[MNM]

Certainly nobody's saying that relations between the UFP and the Pact are going to be all flowers and candy. There's going to be a lot of tension. But it has the potential to go either way. There are a lot of different factions within the Pact -- six species, probably each with multiple internal factions of its own -- and they're going to be jockeying for advantage in this newborn alliance. And not every agenda they have is going to be about the Federation or the Klingons or the Romulans. Every state has internal concerns as well as external ones. There are sure to be factions within the Pact that think enmity with the UFP or the Klingons is a good idea, others that think cooperation with the UFP or the Klingons is a good idea, and others that are more concerned with jockeying for status within the Pact itself and couldn't care less about the UFP or the Klingons.And it's too early to say which factions will come out ahead.

In a real life situation what you say might be right, lots of internal and external politiking etc, but this isnt real life, it's a fictional universe. In that sense, really, what use would having the Typhon Pact be anything other than antagonists to the Federation/Klingons be? Surely there is no point in going in this direction unless the newly created entity opposes the established ones?

 

[William Leisner]

In a real life situation what you say might be right, lots of internal and external politiking etc, but this isnt real life, it's a fictional universe. In that sense, really, what use would having the Typhon Pact be anything other than antagonists to the Federation/Klingons be? Surely there is no point in going in this direction unless the newly created entity opposes the established ones?

Yes, because novelists are such unimaginative people, after all.

 

[MNM]

In a real life situation what you say might be right, lots of internal and external politiking etc, but this isnt real life, it's a fictional universe. In that sense, really, what use would having the Typhon Pact be anything other than antagonists to the Federation/Klingons be? Surely there is no point in going in this direction unless the newly created entity opposes the established ones?

Yes, because novelists are such unimaginative people, after all.

Yeah. It's nothing to do with being unimagininative. I just dont see the point of creating a new political entity within the Trek universe, unless you are doing so to offer new challenges to the established ones. And those new challenges arent going to come if the new political entity doesnt "oppose" the Federation.

 

[William Leisner]

It's nothing to do with being unimagininative. I just dont see [...]

Did it occur to you that other people -- more imaginative people -- may be capable of seeing what you just don't?

 

[MNM]

It's nothing to do with being unimagininative. I just dont see [...]

Did it occur to you that other people -- more imaginative people -- may be capable of seeing what you just don't?

Yes yes yes, other people think dfferently than me and view things differently.

But well ok, what is the point of having the Typhon Pact if it isnt opposed to the Federation?

I didnt say there werent any ideas you could use with the Typhon Pact. for example I am sure an Articles of the Federation style book on them would be an interesting read in and of itself. But do you create the Typhon Pact just to write a book like that? considering that AotF, as good as it was, didnt sell enough to get another one, I think that unlikely.

So what do you do if they are nice and peaceful with the Federation? What conflict does that create in the story? If you arent putting these states together to create a new "enemy"/opposing entity to contrast and pit the Federation against, why bother doing it? Change for changes sake? You could just write these individual states as being at peace and friendly with the Federation and achieve the same result without changing everything around.

 

[Nardpuncher]

It's nothing to do with being unimagininative. I just dont see [...]

Did it occur to you that other people -- more imaginative people -- may be capable of seeing what you just don't?

This post came off as a little too condescending.

 

[Christopher]

In that sense, really, what use would having the Typhon Pact be anything other than antagonists to the Federation/Klingons be? Surely there is no point in going in this direction unless the newly created entity opposes the established ones?

Here's the thing: It's true that drama requires conflict, but it's oversimplistic to assume that conflict always means fighting. Conflict means that the characters face an obstacle to achieving their goals, or are torn between conflicting needs.

Think about the situation I described within the Pact. Six powers, many of them prone to be contentious, trying to wrestle out a new status quo with each other and with the quadrant as a whole. That's a very volatile, potentially hazardous situation even if there's no immediate threat from those powers. Just being on the sidelines of such a dynamic can be a prickly place to be, and even if they aren't simplistically "enemies," there's the possibility that you could screw things up and make them your enemies if you handle the situation badly.

Not every Trek story is about fighting an enemy. Many of them are about facing a hazardous situation and trying to keep it from getting out of control. Many of them are about preserving the peace, trying to keep other powers from going to war with each other or succumbing to internal chaos.

And those new challenges arent going to come if the new political entity doesnt "oppose" the Federation.

That's not true at all. Maybe the challenge could lie in helping the Pact find a stable equilibrium that would be good for the quadrant and resisting those factions within the Pact that might tear it apart and prolong the chaos -- with the added challenge of convincing a suspicious Pact leadership that the UFP isn't the enemy. (I don't know if that's going to be the story, mind you, but it shows there are challenges other than straightforward opposition.)

There are plenty of challenges in politics other than open enmity. Just look around you at the real world. Study the relations that countries have with each other, and you'll find many complex and challenging situations that don't involve war or open hostility.

So what do you do if they are nice and peaceful with the Federation? What conflict does that create in the story?

You're making the mistake of assuming that the Pact's nature is already settled, or will be settled soon. As Allyn said, we're only at the beginning of the process. It could be years, even decades, before we know for sure whether the Pact will be a friend or a foe -- before even the Pact itself knows what its identity will be. Right now, they're still going through their birth pangs, and it's a turbulent and unpredictable time. That's where the danger, the challenge, and the interest lie. It's not that they're "the enemy," it's that they could be anything, that there are countless ways things could go wrong.

And it's not even just about the Pact. The whole astropolitical order in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants has been disrupted hugely by the Borg invasion and the Dominion War before it. What used to be relatively stable is now much more unsettled and turbulent, and that creates all kinds of challenges and risks. The Typhon Pact situation is merely one aspect of that. There are so very many stories to be told here beyond just another hackneyed "Us vs. Them" narrative.

 

[Thrawn]

It's nothing to do with being unimagininative. I just dont see [...]

Did it occur to you that other people -- more imaginative people -- may be capable of seeing what you just don't?

This post came off as a little too condescending.

Possibly, but it was also valid, as Christopher just demonstrated.

 

[MNM]

Possibly, but it was also valid, as Christopher just demonstrated.

Technically it wasnt. As I was called unimaginative, when I simply said I didnt see the point of doing something if done in a certain way.

Anyway, I shall agree to disagree with Christohper and whoever else it was, and we shall just have to see what the books will give us when they come out.

 

[Nardpuncher]

Possibly, but it was also valid, as Christopher just demonstrated.

Technically it wasnt. As I was called unimaginative, when I simply said I didnt see the point of doing something if done in a certain way.

Anyway, I shall agree to disagree with Christohper and whoever else it was, and we shall just have to see what the books will give us when they come out.

And I'd say the opinion you had, which was a completely reasonable one...got quite the treatment! You'd think you'd said something rude or something.

 

[Steve Roby]

It's nothing to do with being unimagininative. I just dont see [...]

Did it occur to you that other people -- more imaginative people -- may be capable of seeing what you just don't?

This post came off as a little too condescending.

I think it was just about right. MNM is talking to Trek novelists who may well know more than he or she does about how the Typhon Pact storyline is going to play out, and who have been demonstrating in Typhon Pact discussions around here for some time that there's more than one possible approach to developing a rival power to the Federation. We've had big war stories in Trek over the last fifteen years, from the Dominion War to Destiny to various events in STO. Seems plausible to me that the editors and novelists might have something other than that in mind.

 

[Starbreaker]

I'm always amazed by the stuff people will argue over on this board, even after almost 10 yeas.

I've just learned it's best not to argue with the authors. They've got the inside information.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I've just learned it's best not to argue with the authors. They've got the inside information.

It's best not to tell creative people that they're not being very creative, especially before they've finished being creative, or are just about to start.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I've just learned it's best not to argue with the authors. They've got the inside information.

It's best not to tell creative people that they're not being very creative, especially before they've finished being creative, or are just about to start.

I only read the last two posts by MNM but he did not tell any creative people they weren't being creative. Maybe I missed an earlier post.
And this will all look silly if the Typhon Pact ends up being an adversary.

 

[stonester1]

I've been reading the post Destiny books. Just finished Unworthy and I'm now on A Singular Destiny.

I have to think that those grousing about Trek no longer being optimistic and all about "genocide chic" only read the back covers, not the books themselves. There is NO WAY.

Because though the TrekU is dealing with some hard stuff and parts have a harder edge and actions have consequences that don't get wrapped up in an hour (HORRORS!), doesn't follow that it's all gloom and doom.

Unworthy was a VERY clever and inventive novel and fully worthy of the imagination and optimism that epitomizes Star Trek.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I only read the last two posts by MNM but he did not tell any creative people they weren't being creative. Maybe I missed an earlier post.

One of the authors, William Leisner, reacted very strongly to:

In a real life situation what you say might be right, lots of internal and external politiking etc, but this isnt real life, it's a fictional universe. In that sense, really, what use would having the Typhon Pact be anything other than antagonists to the Federation/Klingons be? Surely there is no point in going in this direction unless the newly created entity opposes the established ones?

and then WL was admonished for defending the authors' position.

It seems, to me, way too early to be asking "What use would having...?" and "Surely there is no point..."