The Star Wars problem

[Ithekro]

Most people in the Galaxy would only know the Jedi based on stories and rumors. They know they exist, but the great majority of the Galaxy never sees them. They tend to travel light. One or two Jedi arrive someplace were their is a problem. Work out something, then leave. Most people will only hear about what happened second, three, or even a chain telephone call later. So the truth of what the Jedi are or are not can easily be distorted. Some populations thing of the Jedi as baby stealers and thugs of the Senate. Others things they are mystical monk that practices some farcical religion. Others things they are warmongering zealots working to take over the Galaxy. The only facts people would have are that the Jedi exist, they use some kind of laser sword. The have a temple in the galactic capital planet. That was about it. A slave like Anakin heard rumors of many things from traders and smugglers. He heard that no one could kill a Jedi. Probably because most of the time its a Jedi again a small group of thugs or pirates. That usually turns out fine. But Sith Lords and Armies tend to change that rumor in the Clone Wars.

The Jedi liked to be low key. They weren't out for fame or glory. Just to get the task done and move on. A lot of the reason the Galaxy misunderstood the Jedi by the end of the Clone Wars is actually the Jedi's fault. They didn't do public relations at all. They preferred to not deal with the public. They tended to ignore the rumor mills about their own reputations and just do their own thing. And that cost them because Palpatine was working the public, from both sides of the war, to get the public to distrust and even hate the Jedi, long before Order 66 came down.

 

[Hunter Zolomon]

Most people in the Galaxy would only know the Jedi based on stories and rumors. They know they exist, but the great majority of the Galaxy never sees them. They tend to travel light. One or two Jedi arrive someplace were their is a problem. Work out something, then leave. Most people will only hear about what happened second, three, or even a chain telephone call later. So the truth of what the Jedi are or are not can easily be distorted. Some populations thing of the Jedi as baby stealers and thugs of the Senate. Others things they are mystical monk that practices some farcical religion. Others things they are warmongering zealots working to take over the Galaxy. The only facts people would have are that the Jedi exist, they use some kind of laser sword. The have a temple in the galactic capital planet. That was about it. A slave like Anakin heard rumors of many things from traders and smugglers. He heard that no one could kill a Jedi. Probably because most of the time its a Jedi again a small group of thugs or pirates. That usually turns out fine. But Sith Lords and Armies tend to change that rumor in the Clone Wars.

The Jedi liked to be low key. They weren't out for fame or glory. Just to get the task done and move on. A lot of the reason the Galaxy misunderstood the Jedi by the end of the Clone Wars is actually the Jedi's fault. They didn't do public relations at all. They preferred to not deal with the public. They tended to ignore the rumor mills about their own reputations and just do their own thing. And that cost them because Palpatine was working the public, from both sides of the war, to get the public to distrust and even hate the Jedi, long before Order 66 came down.

That is my point, ppl knew the jedi existed. It wasnt a myth. At no point was anyone surprised to find out that obi wan and anakin where jedis. In didnt even cause a sense of awe, even in a backwater like tattooing. Just like a republic senator. My god jedis did everything for lead armies during war and engage in negotiations with governments during peace time. The idea that a 30 yr old a mere 20 yrs later would think they where a myth is preposterous.
I dont care how much propaganda the empire pumped out, if you where alive when the jedis where around then you would know they where real. So its laughable that an imperial officer in his 40s challenges vader about the force. Nothing is ever a myth in 20 years not even during the bronze age on this planet. Not to talk about ina galaxy with faster than light travel and ftl communication.

 

[Reverend]

they where not a secret force, they where famous all over the galaxy, almost everyone knew what a jedi was. They where known as peace keepers, took part in wars and where a big part of republic politics, with a big ass temple on the capital corusant, they where not a secret in any sense of the word.

You're assuming an awful lot there. Exactly what makes you think the average citizen of the galaxy thought so highly of the Jedi, even before they started leading armies to crush rebellious worlds and attempting coup d'etat?

As has been repeatedly explained to you, it's a *big* galaxy and while most may have heard of the Jedi, it's more in an academic sense, the same way people in the real world might have known of the Knights Templar before they were all wiped out. Do you think most people got upset about that? I doubt it somehow.

 

[Ithekro]

Imperial officers and Han Solo are not treating the Jedi like they are a myth. What they don't believe in is the reported powers of the Jedi. The Force. Report of them leading the war do nothing to show off their powers because the news from the front lines specifically didn't say anything about the feats of the Jedi. It was all about the Army winning or losing battles. Most negotiations prior to that don't need mind trick or special powers. Just mediation...with the potential threat of a lightsaber, I suppose. Jedi Knights could be seen as highly skilled warriors by some. Negotiators for the Senate by others. But the Jedi didn't advertise all that much on their own, and they basically got only bad press during the entire Chancellorship of Palpatine before the Clone Wars even started (which would be basically all of Han Solo's life). That the Jedi would sometimes go into "aggressive negotiations" would leave a bad taste in the mouths of those that the Jedi negotiated against on behalf of the Republic. The Separatist worlds would certainly have a dim view of the Jedi as agents of the corrupt Republic.

So no, the Galaxy as a whole did not have a high opinion of the Jedi, nor did it at large believe in the Force. This continues 55 years after Order 66 in TFA. While the Empire is gone...so are the Jedi for the most part. While religious orders that follow the Force are no longer being prosecuted by the Empire, having that large of a gap with very few true Force users galaxy wide will keep belief in the truth of the Jedi and the Force down.

 

[Hunter Zolomon]

Imperial officers and Han Solo are not treating the Jedi like they are a myth. What they don't believe in is the reported powers of the Jedi. The Force. Report of them leading the war do nothing to show off their powers because the news from the front lines specifically didn't say anything about the feats of the Jedi. It was all about the Army winning or losing battles. Most negotiations prior to that don't need mind trick or special powers. Just mediation...with the potential threat of a lightsaber, I suppose. Jedi Knights could be seen as highly skilled warriors by some. Negotiators for the Senate by others. But the Jedi didn't advertise all that much on their own, and they basically got only bad press during the entire Chancellorship of Palpatine before the Clone Wars even started (which would be basically all of Han Solo's life). That the Jedi would sometimes go into "aggressive negotiations" would leave a bad taste in the mouths of those that the Jedi negotiated against on behalf of the Republic. The Separatist worlds would certainly have a dim view of the Jedi as agents of the corrupt Republic.

So no, the Galaxy as a whole did not have a high opinion of the Jedi, nor did it at large believe in the Force. This continues 55 years after Order 66 in TFA. While the Empire is gone...so are the Jedi for the most part. While religious orders that follow the Force are no longer being prosecuted by the Empire, having that large of a gap with very few true Force users galaxy wide will keep belief in the truth of the Jedi and the Force down.

Fair enough when you put it that way, i always thought or remembered that it was the jedis and the force that was a myth not just the force.
I can see how ppl can not believe the force was real. However i think it is an oversight to have a galaxy with space wizards and the general public not caring about if their reported abilities where true or not. Think about it, in the real world its not hard it disprove the so called abilities that cults like scientology claim to possess and their not even tied to the govt. However in the Republic in which a cult is known to be actively involved in government affairs and have powers. Which i am sure ppl have witnessed, the general public dont find the fascinating. No pop culture on them, mass media doesnt exist in this society. No holoshows, movies documentaries and actual footage. Think of how hard it is to hide things now once the go public, imagine how much more difficult in a galaxy with trillions of people. The Republic was not a totalitarian state when the jedis where at their height, so what gives.

 

[Ithekro]

After 25,000 years or however long the Republic and Jedi have been around, I think people have gone past the point of caring really. The Jedi are not a new things anymore. While things might have been matter of fact at one point, there was no real novelty in it anymore, and at some point the people not caring turned into myths and legends about what the Jedi could do. The thing is, I don't think anyone cared to look the stuff up because it was old. It didn't matter to the public. After that long, things start to become a mix if what is true and what is false and no one really cares to look it up, because it doesn't matter, really. There became Jedi stereotypes that everyone knew, but never bothered to see if they were true or not.

Once the galaxy is in a general state of apathy about the Jedi, they'll buy anything the government says about the Jedi and not really care if it is true or not. If it doesn't effect them and their planet, who cares? The average citizen's not going to care what the Jedi are or are not. It doesn't effect them most of the time. By the time of the Clone Wars, the war was what was effecting people, and if the media is saying it was the Jedi's fault, than the public are going to start hating on the Jedi. No one is going to care what powers they actually have, nor is anyone going to care to look up the truth. People are hurting, starving, have no power for some hours of the day, and basic services are shutting down to pay for the war....the Jedi's War. The pubic turned on the Jedi well before Order 66 came down. After that, people would be glad the Jedi are dead, and would be glad to not remember them as anything but the people that almost destroyed the Galaxy and corrupted the Republic.

Sure there will be people that will be interested in the Jedi, and people that know the truth, but they will be a minority in the Galaxy that largely hates the Jedi for what the people are told they did. Palpatine made sure there was some truth in his lies. Almost everything he accused the Jedi of was true, from a certain point of view. Many of the things the Jedi were accused of were actually done by Palpatine and Dooku, but placing the blame on the Jedi works because the rest of the tale was true. The Jedi did try to assassinate Palpatine. The Jedi did basically start the war. A Jedi (former) lead the Separatists into fighting the Republic and the Jedi fought the war. The lie in there was that the Jedi were using the war to destabilized the Republic to take over...that was Palpatine, but without knowing he was the Sith Lord behind everything, the Jedi look rather guilty to the public.

 

[Hunter Zolomon]

I get the efforts by palpatine to discredit the jedi, take dooku for example who was a famous former jedi that led a galaxy wide independent state, i am sure ppl knew he had abilities. My point is that myths cannot be formed, my point is that 20 years is too short a time for stuff to become myth and legend. Especially in a republic that existed for thousands of years. No way is 20 years enough to wipe something from the public consciousness. Hitler exterminated jews, he never pretended that they never existed. North korea has been a totalitarian state for over 40 years and its a way smaller territory to control. But to turn something that has existed for thousands of years into a myth in a big ass galaxy in just 20 years is ridiculous. Most of the ppl that where alive during the republic are still alive during the empires reign. Not to talk about the core worlds that where very populated and big parts of republicsn politics. People calling the jedi and the force ancient in the originals, erm nothing is ancient in 20 years, no matter what way you slice it.
When it comes to rey and han solo telling her that all of it was true. He better have been referring to just the force because we saw solo and friends get their medals. Then again if they expect fans to swallow the myth in 20 yrs story, then why wont ppl forget about what han solo and his friends did. You know like how we all forgot about the battle of gettysburg or the normandy landings. I guess nothing is ever recorded or popular by the masses in a galaxy far far away.

 

[Ithekro]

Judging by what we see in the likes of Star Wars Rebels....things aren't recorded and distributed all that much really. We can't even be sure what counts as schooling in Star Wars. Everyone lives in their own little worlds with little interaction with the greater galaxy unless you are in the military, politics, or trade. The general public isn't going to care what happens on some other Rim world really. The only news they get in the holonet, and that's government sponsored. We can't even be sure what history people even get on each world about the Republic even before the fall. In the Clone Wars and films, outside of the Core Worlds, people knew of the Jedi, but they only really knew stories about them, not truth about them. The Force was this intangible thing to most people. Unless they encountered an actual Jedi, people really didn't believe in all the tales about the Force. It is too fantastical for most people, even if it has been happening for thousands of years. By the time of the Clone Wars, the days when the Jedi were the massive heros of the galaxy was over a thousand years ago when they were fighting he Sith and restoring the Republic. That is basically legends to most people on the order of King Arthur or even William the Conqueror. Sure the Jedi were still around, but by the "present day" they were basically agents of the Senate, and I would assume most people didn't have all that high a regard for the Senate as it was seen as a corrupt institution. So the Jedi wouldn't be seen in a positive light by all, and most would never have seen the Force in action, only hearing stories about it mixed with stories from a thousand or more years ago. At some point people are going to stop believing because it is too fantastical, and no one really cares to provide proof, because the Jedi don't really want the publicity and try to not show off to the public.

It isn't that the galaxy forgot in 20 year...they didn't really believe in the first place. That the Jedi were killed reinforced the skeptics, because the believers were the ones that thought you couldn't kill a Jedi, yet the Clone Wars killed almost all of them by the end and the Empire hunted down the rest as traitors. That doesn't reinforce the idea of mystical heroic monks....it makes them looks like corrupt manipulators trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the people with heroic tales that are too good to be true (even though they were true).

As for Han Solo telling Rey and Finn that is was all true. There are two young people born after the war. One isolated on a junk heap of a dustball with little real contact to the outside galaxy. The other only knows what propaganda the First Order feeds him. They don't know what happened, and over the decades, the truth has become distorted, as people believe the tales of Luke Skywalker were propaganda from the Rebel Alliance and New Republic. This isn't World War II were you have documentary footage, or Vietnam were you have the media filming....there may be no visual records of the Battle of Yavin, the Battle on Hoth, or the Battle of Endor. For how advanced the Star Wars Galaxy is, they don't operate like 21st century Earth. Sometimes it seems more like 18th or 19th century Earth with or even 12th century Earth in culture.

Remember that farm boy on Tatooine? The guy that thought his father was a navigator on a spice freighter? His father....Anakin Skywalker. Jedi Knight and Hero of the Republic. Luke never heard of him, probably didn't even have an image of him. The first time he saw his father, in any form was likely the day Vader killed Obi-wan. Luke had never heard of the Force. Tatooine was a backwater planet that had been outside the Republic, but prior to the Clone Wars a junk dealer as well as that deal's slave knew what a Jedi was, though perhaps not the Force. Luke knew what a Jedi was, and he knew about the Clone Wars Luke had heard of the Jedi Knights, since he didn't question Obi-wan about what that was. But he didn't know all that much about it, since it was likely something people didn't talk about anymore.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, the way I look at it, Luke knew what a Jedi was in the same broad sense that some random person in the real world probably knows what a Samurai was. Luke not having heard of the force is akin to said person not having heard of Aikido or the Bushido code. The information may be out there if one has a mind to go looking (*very carefully*, if one happens to be an Imperial subject), but the latter is *much* more famous than the former and mostly because of the wildly inaccurate but very popular stories told about them.

 

[Hunter Zolomon]

Okay you guys have convinced me. Seriously you have. Its actually a plot hole i have scoffed at for years. I just assumed that what i saw in the prequels and clone wars where public knowledge and pop culture stories. It makes a lot more sense now.