The Star Trek Trilogy...

[Maurice]

Red Ranger said:
Let us watch the bees buzz in the collective bonnet of the TMP sycophants!

sycophant noun.
a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite
a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage

Maybe you should try a word that actually means what you're trying to say; what personal gain can one derive from liking a 28 year old movie?

 

[Red Ranger]

DS9Sega said:

Red Ranger said:
Let us watch the bees buzz in the collective bonnet of the TMP sycophants!

sycophant noun.
a self-seeking, servile flatterer; fawning parasite
a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage

Maybe you should try a word that actually means what you're trying to say; what personal gain can one derive from liking a 28 year old movie?

Thanks for the definitions. I always say exactly what I mean, pal. Meaning one is exactly what I was going for. You're smarter than you look!

 

[Maurice]

^^^Classy. Insult the person who's arguing with you.

re definition 1: Servile to whom?

 

[The Old Mixer]

So...anyone who enjoys this movie is a "a self-seeking, servile flatterer"...a "fawning parasite"?

No, that's what we'd be if we all agreed with you, Red Ranger.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The Old Mixer said:
that's what we'd be if we all agreed with you, Red Ranger.

Fascinating. ST:TMP is still my favourite film of all time. I came to it knowing only about ten TOS episodes, most of TAS (seen in b/w), a series of articles about an Aussie journalist's week on the set, and the novelization. (And having not been caught up in the "Star Wars" phenomenon.)

I was blown away by the life-changing experience that was TMP. If that makes me a self-seeking, servile flatterer and a fawning parasite so be it.

 

[InklingStar]

Some people just cannot handle it when others disagree with them.

 

[Red Ranger]

DS9Sega said:
^^^Classy. Insult the person who's arguing with you.

re definition 1: Servile to whom?

"Parasite" is closer. Living off the past glories of a movie not everyone agrees is the pinnacle of the movie series. Why? Only the TMP sycophants know the answer to that. The movie is a crashing bore, IMO. -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

The Old Mixer said:
So...anyone who enjoys this movie is a "a self-seeking, servile flatterer"...a "fawning parasite"?

No, that's what we'd be if we all agreed with you, Red Ranger.

Going out on a limb here, chum, but I guess you're in the TMP sycophant column, Old Mixer!

 

[Data Holmes]

Kegek Kringle said:

hutt359 said:
When it comes to the trek scores I see TMP and TFF as one. I see TWOK and TSFS as one, and TUC as a standalone which touches appon the first "two" score styles. I don't count TVH's score, as it never felt like a trek score.

Cliff Eidelmann's score for TUC appears to be more inspired by Gustav Holst's Mars: The Bringer of War (and Dmitri Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony) than any of the previous Star Trek scores. It has the distinction of being, in my opinion, the last really good film score for a Star Trek film.

I have hopes that Giacchino's will be the next score of such import.

You are right. However, Eidelmann had an understanding of the trek film scores that came before him. He produced "Star Trek The Astral Symphony" just before he did his work on TUC. So, while his primary sources of inspiration for the score were in fact what you say, he still worked in little bits of the earlier works. There is a bit of horner and goldsmith's Klingon themes in there, including an electronic sound very close to the blaster beam from the TMP and TWOK/SFS scores. There was touches of Spocks theme from TWOK/SFS score. There was a bit of the Courage fanfare...

The thing for was always, TUC wasn't a federation centric score, it was a klingon centric score. As such, the federation touches are smaller, secondary cues.

Trek scores, from the TOS films are all (except for IV) DNA connected to trek's roots while still adding new material. TMP has elements of TOS. TWOK was inspired by TMP. TSFS is a continuation of TWOK. TFF is a continuation of TMP. TUC is mostly Klingon, with hints of TMP/TFF and TWOK/TSFS score in it as well.


I've also spent many an hour with one or all of the scores for the trek films playing in the background. I've noticed over time that Goldsmiths score for TMP has roots within Holsts the planets...

And the more I've paid attention, the more I've realized that alot of film scores can trace their DNA back to it.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^It's no secret that John Williams was fond of drawing from Holst in his various scores. I've noticed a few particularly striking similarities. "Mars" is most strongly evoked when the Millennium Falcon is being pulled into the Death Star in Star Wars..."Venus" is echoed in the love theme from Superman...and "Saturn" is all over the theme he uses when they're carrying around the Ark in Raiders.

Red Ranger said:
Going out on a limb here, chum, but I guess you're in the TMP sycophant column, Old Mixer!

No, I'm just somebody who happens to enjoy this movie on various levels, and thereby gets insulted for daring to have a taste that differs from your own.

 

[Kegek]

Interesting analysis, hutt359. IIRC, A major influence of Jerry Goldsmith for his TMP score - which I do not believe he shared with Williams or Horner - was Ralph Vaughn Williams' Sinfonia Antartica. An interesting point, as both Holst and Vaughn Williams were contemporaries, but the latter had the more succesful and productive career. Compare the majestic mystique of the Artic in the first movement of this piece with the wondrous awe of V'Ger, and the similarities become apparent.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Guys... Let's just accept we all have different opinions. I really don't want to have to punch the warning button...

 

[trevanian]

Reading these posts on the music made me think there really could be something to the Holst TMP thing, cuz I remember when I saw OUTLAND in '81, it seemed to me then that Goldsmith's whole score was a riff on the JUPITER part of Holst's music. Makes sense, given that Jupiter is this enormous presence in the sky (even if you rarely see it that way in the film.)

Am I misremembering this? Does anybody have JG's OUTLAND score?

I'm gonna have to hunt up Vaughn's stuff too. Any particular recordings to be on the lookout for?

 

[Kegek]

trevanian said:
I'm gonna have to hunt up Vaughn's stuff too. Any particular recordings to be on the lookout for?

Aside from the symphony in question (his seventh, I believe), I don't believe so. I have a number of his other works on CD, he's generally excellent, but I doubt, say, his version of Loch Lomond had any influence on Star Trek film. I believe he appended a quotation from H.G. Wells to his second, A London Symphony, however, but nothing relevant to sci-fi or the ST franchise.

Incidentally, Vaughn Williams is his surname, his first name is Ralph.

 

[Holytomato]

"I like the films just fine, but too many of the TOS films were wasted on telling one big story. If I had it my way we would have had 6 stand alone films that focused on the "Human Adventure" just like the end of TMP promised us."

"A challenge...

Make one film from the six films."

I agree. :thumbsup:

 

[Data Holmes]

Kegek Kringle said:
Interesting analysis, hutt359. IIRC, A major influence of Jerry Goldsmith for his TMP score - which I do not believe he shared with Williams or Horner - was Ralph Vaughn Williams' Sinfonia Antartica. An interesting point, as both Holst and Vaughn Williams were contemporaries, but the latter had the more succesful and productive career. Compare the majestic mystique of the Artic in the first movement of this piece with the wondrous awe of V'Ger, and the similarities become apparent.

I was not aware of this work, but from the few seconds of sample on amazon, you are right. I can definitely hear the influence.

It's very interesting, I'll have to dig up a CD or MP3 of this work. :thumbsup:


Horner, especially early horner, was heavily influenced by the works of JG. So it could be said he may have been influenced second hand. I mean, he wrote his college paper on JG, and even dated his daughter. Most of his early sound, was based off of Battle beyond the Stars, a score where he was specifically told to give a "Goldsmith TMP like score" for the roger corman produced movie. I think that his best work of this sound was in Krull myself.

 

[Data Holmes]

Holytomato said:
"I like the films just fine, but too many of the TOS films were wasted on telling one big story. If I had it my way we would have had 6 stand alone films that focused on the "Human Adventure" just like the end of TMP promised us."

"A challenge...

Make one film from the six films."

I agree. :thumbsup:

Been there, done that.

I've been messing with that idea for a few years now. It's one reason I tossed the idea out there.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Red Ranger said:

DS9Sega said:
^^^Classy. Insult the person who's arguing with you.

re definition 1: Servile to whom?

"Parasite" is closer. Living off the past glories of a movie not everyone agrees is the pinnacle of the movie series. Why? Only the TMP sycophants know the answer to that. The movie is a crashing bore, IMO. -- RR

Aww, c'mon, buddy. Lots of people like TMP best--I know I do (with TWoK coming in as a very close second-- I've little use for the rest of them) but I'd hardly consider myself a parasite, flatterer or sycophant. Firstly, I've blasted the great GR for bad ethics and bad story decisions elsewhere on this board and, regarding Mr. Wise, I've never much cared for The Sound of Music (and TGT has blasted him for screwing over Orson Welles). TMP is a flawed, poorly paced movie that still manages to satisfy me as a science fiction fan as well as a Trekkie. It's the most ambitious of the Trek films and it is the bravest, daring to make Kirk and Spock into unlikeable pricks for most of its running time yet still being true to their essence as people. You may disagree, of course--a whole lot of folks do--but you don't have to call us sycophants. Hell, if we can tolerate people who like TFF, surely you can tolerate us.

Oh, and big, juicy asses rule! :thumbsup:

 

[Nebusj]

The Old Mixer said:
^It's no secret that John Williams was fond of drawing from Holst in his various scores.

Everyone draws on Holst, particularly for space movies; ``Mars'' is all over the place.

I hear touches of ``Venus'' in the classic Original Series theme, but I have very uneducated musical tastes and probably heaer all sorts of things that aren't really there. I'm terrible with faces too.

 

[Red Ranger]

Brutal Strudel said:

Red Ranger said:

DS9Sega said:
^^^Classy. Insult the person who's arguing with you.

re definition 1: Servile to whom?

"Parasite" is closer. Living off the past glories of a movie not everyone agrees is the pinnacle of the movie series. Why? Only the TMP sycophants know the answer to that. The movie is a crashing bore, IMO. -- RR

Aww, c'mon, buddy. Lots of people like TMP best--I know I do (with TWoK coming in as a very close second-- I've little use for the rest of them) but I'd hardly consider myself a parasite, flatterer or sycophant. Firstly, I've blasted the great GR for bad ethics and bad story decisions elsewhere on this board and, regarding Mr. Wise, I've never much cared for The Sound of Music (and TGT has blasted him for screwing over Orson Welles). TMP is a flawed, poorly paced movie that still manages to satisfy me as a science fiction fan as well as a Trekkie. It's the most ambitious of the Trek films and it is the bravest, daring to make Kirk and Spock into unlikeable pricks for most of its running time yet still being true to their essence as people. You may disagree, of course--a whole lot of folks do--but you don't have to call us sycophants. Hell, if we can tolerate people who like TFF, surely you can tolerate us.

Oh, and big, juicy asses rule! :thumbsup:

Brutal:

Well, I was trying to get a rise out of people, and boy did I succeed. I do remember one time liking TMP far more than I do now. It is what it is, as they say.

As to your last sentiment, Amen, my fellow steatopygia enthusiast! Scarlett, J. Lo, and Iris Chacon rule!

Red Ranger