The Siege of AR-558, Infantry Combat of the 24th Century

[yakueb]

I thought it was unrealistic within the confines of the universe they created.

A Starfleet ground war would have personal shields (seen them), phasers that can stop an approaching force on wide angle settings (seen them), and many other things that, really, would make a ground war pretty obsolete.

I just couldn't wrap my head around the logistics of the episode. Seems like they just wanted the typical war episode for no other reason than to have one, and forced the circumstances in the story to get one in a way that wasn't true to the universe Trek had created.

I've been thinking about this for a while - for me, one of the most interesting things about personnel combat in DS9 is that phasors no longer vaporize people when they are set on maximum - what's changed?

I wonder if the weapon is far more deadly, or rather, has a more powerful "yield," so to speak, when it is set not to vaporize but to channel all the energy into one spot - in AR-558 starfleet is using the same phasor rifles that turned people into nothing on TNG, so why are they not doing the same thing here?

My theory is this: That starfleet uniforms are actually quite tough when it comes to weapons fire - perhaps they deflect or redistribute the energy. I imagine that Jem Hadar armor must also be something quite hard to punch through. Perhaps the vaporize settings are ineffective against armor.

 

[Timo]

I'd look at it from the opposite angle, sort of.

If you want to kill a person, why vaporize him? That's a waste of energy (I'd assume) and gains you essentially nothing over just plain shutting down the body of the enemy.

However, there's one important argument for vaporizing: it's supposedly much less agonizing than other ways of dying. So in peacetime, Starfleet personnel would vaporize their victims - but in wartime, they would not have the luxury of treating their victims humanely, since they would be more concerned about saving the batteries of their phasers.

And we do know from "Omega Glory" that hand phasers can be drained in an infantry fight that leaves the battlefield littered with enemy bodies. So it's not a tech difference between TOS and TNG/DS9/VOY - it's a difference in doctrine, and in circumstances.

I'd say some Starfleet uniforms have anti-phaser properties, yes. The one in "Nor a Battle to the Strong" showed atypical charring around the chest hit, and was also of a different texture overall. Presumably standard uniforms don't protect you much, but an optional "flak jacket" exists and is only worn in certain battlefield situations because it is considered cumbersome (exactly like flak jackets today are considered cumbersome, and expensive, and quite seldom worn by the infantry). And most of the people in "Siege of AR-558" indeed seemed to wear this type of "flak jacket"...

Agreed that the episode isn't a good example of what infantry combat under Trek rules would look like. But that wasn't the point of the episode. The setup was artificial because the goal was a very specific type of drama. We could just as well bitch and moan that ST2 wasn't a good example of starship combat under Trek rules - but the nebula and the combat damage set up an enjoyably exceptional situation in which a specific type of drama could take place. Generic battles grow dull and repetitive very quickly.

Of course, we never got generic infantry combat in Trek, because that's much more expensive to do than starship combat. There're the live extras, the costumes and props, the location shooting, the superimposition of VFX against the location shoot rather than against other VFX... But even if Trek had afforded that sort of fighting, it, too would have grown old quickly. I rather prefer we got "AR-558" fresh and unspoiled by a preceding generic surface fight...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dingo]

exactly like flak jackets today are considered cumbersome, and expensive, and quite seldom worn by the infantry

Wrong. At least in Iraq, where I'm serving, infantrymen and anyone who goes off base is required to wear his body armor.

 

[JoeZhang]

Trek tech has been stuck in the 1960s for a long long time - this episode is no different - but as others say that's not the point. I also agree with the other poster who said that Star Trek is tech fantasy not science fiction.

 

[Timo]

Wrong. At least in Iraq, where I'm serving, infantrymen and anyone who goes off base is required to wear his body armor.

But that's the United States of America speaking. 90% of the countries on this planet simply cannot afford to purchase ballistic armor for infantrymen, except perhaps for a tiny showcase force that's sent to represent the nation in various coalition or UN actions.

Also, technological development is likely to affect the issue. If there's a sudden increase in the penetrating power of infantry weapons (say, thanks to somebody discovering a more effective yet affordable type of ammo), then ballistic armor becomes a liability - it no longer protects the wearer against anything but shrapnel, and it cannot be upgraded to match the new weapons without turning the wearer into an immobile target. In a more likely scenario, materials technology improves the armor while bullets stay the way they are, and suddenly everybody starts wearing the vests because they now can stop an assault rifle round fired at reasonable combat distances.

Currently, the situation hangs on a precarious balance. In Star Trek, it might be that all hope of good personal protection has long since been abandoned because there is no way such tech (be it clothing or forcefields) could ever catch up with the infantry weapons of the day. And since there's no point in wearing armor against infantry weapons, the armies have decided not to bother with shrapnel protection, either - perhaps because in turn nobody uses airburst artillery shells or similar shrapnel weapons any more.

All the above scenarios are possible and plausible - the current situation is far from the only one imaginable, and future development is almost certainly going to be something completely different from steadily increasing personal protection or steadily increasing penetrating power. We can thus easily accept a scenario in Star Trek wherein personal protection just ain't worth the hussle, and is far more trouble than worth.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

The Jem'Hadar didn't think to bring a single armored vehicle? Or aircraft? Is this 1914?

There have been many, many close in small arms and even hand-to-hand engagements in recent wars where one or both sides have access to all kinds of technology.

You can never make wars entirely clean or safe - at some point for specific targets you cannot bomb and need to capture, and where there is no room for armoured vehicles to manouevre - the infantry will always go in alone and suffer casualties in doing so.

 

[clint g]

I really wanted to like this episode but in the end I just couldn't. The whole thing felt forced; almost as if they were trying to hard. That and the dialogue sucked and felt ultra cheesy (and I pretty much cringed every time they tossed the word soldier around, an odd term for an organization that considers itself navy based)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I liked it, but I actually took kind of an opposite tack with it, in my fanfic. Perhaps the oddness of Starfleet infantry combat is for a reason. The version of Starfleet that I write, anyway, is so absurdly focused on maintaining its peaceful, non-military image that for true infantry combat, the training and equipment simply aren't there in quantities enough to make a difference.

When you contrast them against a species like the Cardassians, who ARE much more experienced and prepared for such things, it becomes readily evident. For instance, the Cardassians wear armor that, depending on the properties they've designed into it, could at least deflect shrapnel (remember, it's not just phasers that maim and kill...even cutting out this aspect will help), and possibly glancing or low-powered phaser hits. We've also heard that their weapons design, while less subtle than the Federation's, is extremely robust even in the most trying of environments and trusted by some even above the organization that supposedly is at the leading edge of technology. Now, that's only two pieces of evidence--but something tells me that if you pitted Cardassians against the Federation, they'd make the Starfleet soldiers look like children playing war.

(I'm very pointedly NOT using the Klingons as examples of good infantry combat...their traditions seem to preclude that, IMHO.)

 

[Dingo]

Then let's not forget the Jem'Hadar as ultimate infantry specialists then. They're trained to fight from birth using everything from bare hands to starship weaponry.

I'd say in terms of rugged simplicity, the Cardassian weapons are a lot like Soviet era weapons, where Starfleet weapons are similar to NATO/US firearms. Kira's lines in Return to Grace bear this out when she describes both rifle types to Ziyal. When she says the Cardassian rifle is rugged, simple, and easy to use I automatically thought of the AK-47/74 series of assault rifle. When she mentions the Federation phaser rifle I automatically think of the M4A1 rifle that I carry. I'd say being a serviceman (though not in the infantry) has given me an interesting perspective on Star Trek episodes depicting warfare on land.

I'm very pointedly NOT using the Klingons as examples of good infantry combat...their traditions seem to preclude that, IMHO

NerysGhemor, outta curiousity why not? I'd say Klingons are comparable to the samurai of feudal Japan in terms of their practices and the samurai were damn fine warriors on both horseback and as infantry.

 

[JoeZhang]

Everything we see on screen about modern Klingons seems to suggest that a) they breed like rabbits and b) mature very very quickly - otherwise I can't understand how such a boneheaded race hasn't gone the way of the dodo...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

In their time and environment, yes...I would agree with that about the samurai. The trouble is, it seems the Klingon focus on personal combat is inefficient when you look at the technologies available in the 24th century--a serious waste of personnel that does not most effectively use the resources an empire of its nature should have at its disposal. Why engage someone in risky close/hand-to-hand combat when you could use a weapon that takes them out at a distance, and with much more certainty of a kill? These people would even rule the use of sniper tactics "dishonorable"! An enemy that does not meet them on their exact terms has the potential to run roughshod over them. (Granted, yes, getting past their starships to that point would be a major problem, but on the ground...I'm not so sure about cases where there hasn't already been a severe bombardment to even the odds out.)

But then, I tend to approach combat from a more pragmatic, Cardassian-like perspective than a fan of the Klingons might.

About the weapons...I definitely made the same connection between the Cardassian disruptor rifle and the AK-47.

 

[Dingo]

But then, I tend to approach combat from a more pragmatic, Cardassian-like perspective than a fan of the Klingons might.

Still, Bajoran terrorists using relatively low tech weapons and many cases captured Cardassian weapons managed in many engagements to evade, or destroy isolated Caradassian patrols. I'm assuming Cardassian body armor and heavy equipment made them less mobile than Bajoran forces on rougher terrain.

I'm also working on a DS9 fanfic after I finish my Voyager fanfic. It involves an isolated Starfleet Lieutenant with some Federation Special Forces unit using the TR116 rifle to 'go hunting with extreme prejudice' after the colony he is based on is overrun by the Cardassians and Dominion.

It takes place around the Dominion War novels, including Tunnel Through the Stars. I remember this passage together with Fields of Fire that inspired this idea: "The Cardassians, who loved to be overbearing, would often beat prisoners for talking"

This was one where the Dominion tried building an artificial wormhole, using Federation captives for slave labor. Does that fit the 'Cardassian mindset'?

The setting for this fic will be both after the war with flashbacks during it. Our hero managed to survive on the planet, with it's tough terrain and mountainous areas. He was part of a small band of isolated Starfleet personnel and former Maquis terrorists fighting a delaying action against the Cardassians under the command of a Bajoran Starfleet officer Commander Kal Skirata (think Ed Harris with a Bajoran nose).

I suppose Cardassians would be good snipers, then?

 

[Myasishchev]

These people would even rule the use of sniper tactics "dishonorable"!

Fwiw, I get the feeling they would only do so if it suited other, hidden purposes. The Klingons, for all their talk of honor, are perfectly willing to abandon hard-and-fast rules of fairness for practical reasons. They take hostages and kill prisoners, use cloaking devices, prey on weakened, failed states like Cardassia... if it's unfair, you can bet the Klingons who benefit from it will call it honorable, and the Klingons who don't will call it cowardly.

Klingons: human?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Some of the other equipment the Cardassians were hauling, yeah...I'd think that could cost them in terms of mobility. We know, for instance, that they have such a thing as a Mechanized Infantry (at least, if we're to believe Garak). That sort of unit I can imagine not having the mobility of the Bajoran terrorists.

On the other hand, though--I never saw any sign that just their armor was any kind of restriction on their mobility. At least in my own writing, I write on the theory that it's made out of some material not known to 21st-century technology--something that allows much more freedom of movement and is much lighter than anything we know, yet effective at deflecting shrapnel and absorbing energy from low-intensity phaser hits. That part, therefore, doesn't present anything like the degree of hindrance as, say, Klingon armor or 21st-century body armor.

So if anything's slowing them up, it's probably all the equipment they're schlepping around from place to place.

As to Cardassians as snipers--yes, I suspect they'd be very good at it. One of the guls in my story got her start in the Sniper Corps before she moved into naval operations. I know that kind of jump wouldn't work with the real-life structure of the armed forces, but I write under the assumption that all elements of the Cardassian military are under one single banner and that therefore such transfers are possible, especially if taken early in the career where one has a chance to get a really good feel for shipboard operations. (Plus...comments dropped by one Glinn Daro in "The Wounded" suggest there's precedent.)

I'd say your fanfic has an interesting and pretty plausible premise, and yes, it fits the orthodox Cardassian mindset. (Mind you, I do not agree with doing such things in real life. And my characters are for the most part rather unorthodox in their ways.)

 

[JoeZhang]

These people would even rule the use of sniper tactics "dishonorable"!

Fwiw, I get the feeling they would only do so if it suited other, hidden purposes. The Klingons, for all their talk of honor, are perfectly willing to abandon hard-and-fast rules of fairness for practical reasons. They take hostages and kill prisoners, use cloaking devices, prey on weakened, failed states like Cardassia... if it's unfair, you can bet the Klingons who benefit from it will call it honorable, and the Klingons who don't will call it cowardly.

Klingons: human?

Wasn't the whole point of the Klingons on DS9 that besides a few oddballs like Worf that all that stuff about Honour was just talk?

 

[Myasishchev]

Yep.

 

[Deks]

The episode was overly dramatic and completely dumbed down from a tech perspective which completely ruined it for me.

 

[Cyke101]

The episode was overly dramatic and completely dumbed down from a tech perspective which completely ruined it for me.

I thought the episode excelled partly because it wasn't so tech-heavy. Nothing would've killed the drama, emotion, and tragedy of the final gunfight like a photon grenaded re-energized by the stagnant ions within the captured subspace tower.

Which brings up another point: the gunfight wasn't fun, it wasn't flashy, it was horrific and messy and chaotic and terrible and exactly what they wanted to portray. I love space battles as much as the next guy, but there's such a big disconnect between what we see and actual drama that sometimes they comes across as cartoony. The least perfect gunfights are probably the ones that wring at your heartstrings, like Saving Pvt. Ryan.

 

[kv1at3485]

Only in Star Trek does "logical use of tech" mean "characters don't have to do anything" and "no drama" and "boring." (Ok, massive exaggeration. "Only in tech fantasy".)

This is irony of Star Trek. It's supposed to be a "human story", we're supposed to have empathy for these people when they encounter problems. Yet, what the producers don't seem to realize, is that making characters and organizations perpetually stupid is completely counterproductive to this.

It is far more effective when characters do everything they possibly can and still fail, instead of making a token effort and then complaining about things going wrong.

The whole Dominion War, indeed the whole of Star Trek, would have been far more poignant if the characters had brains, instead of lacking them. Instead, I find myself laughing far too much when characters die and ships blow up.

 

[RAMA]

RDM and co obviously don't understand military tactics, or even the effect of technology on ground warfare, but its obvious the budget affected the episode, and it had a lesser effect than it could have. It would have been nice to see some hoppers.

RAMA