Yeah, if we could try and stick to the subject... or at least save the Trek XI discussions for the specific forum for discussing said film.
The Shape of the V'Ger Cloud
- Thread starter Joker
- Start date
See I go by the opposite rule that many seem to have. If the Sci-Fi story you are telling can be told without the sci-fi element then why are you telling it as Sci-Fi?
If you are selling me a Sci-Fi series then I expect some real Sci-Fi stories. Regular stories in a Sci-Fi setting are okay but should not be the norm or you'll lose me. I'll wonder why your telling it in a Sci-Fi setting. Same with any genre.
Oh, and I stick with the 82 AU's.
If you are selling me a Sci-Fi series then I expect some real Sci-Fi stories. Regular stories in a Sci-Fi setting are okay but should not be the norm or you'll lose me. I'll wonder why your telling it in a Sci-Fi setting. Same with any genre.
Oh, and I stick with the 82 AU's.
re the Cloud. One of the things I really liked about TMP were these tactical readouts used to illustrate it -- amongst other things -- because they quickly and efficiently portrayed things that would be difficult or awkward to illustrate via SFX shots or dialog, like where the Enterprise was in relation to the cloud, what the energy weapons were doing, etc. I was disappointed that subsequent films didn't utilize them, as I felt they provided a lot of bang for the buck and let us see what the characters did.
Wholeheartedly agreed.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Yeah, if we could try and stick to the subject... or at least save the Trek XI discussions for the specific forum for discussing said film.
I agree in theory ... but since I detest the XI forum mod's biases and have said I won't post there again until that person goes bye-bye, I'll try to keep any XI-related stuff here very much in the light-tangent mode, rather than tirade, okay?
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Interesting. I think a lot of us came in the exact opposite way ... reading science fiction, then broadening our interp of that to let borderline stuff like TOS in before realizing we were more into TOS for the characters than for the SF.
I mean, I don't even consider FIREFLY to be SF, any more than I do TUC, but I love it (FF, not TUC.) TWOK does a neat balancing act, because it has a great SF notion, terraforming, but does it in a looney tunes way (zap presto planet.) The only real 'sense of wonder' that I would attribute to SF qualities there comes with the creation of the Genesis planet, dovetailed with what I hoped was a pretty farewell to Spock's permanently dead body. (that didn't last long, unfortunately.)
I really really like Allan Steele's stuff set on the moon and in earth orbit, showing the industrialization of space. Most folks wouldn't think of it as more than SF trappings, because the characters are so good, but there really is good science in there too. If I could do something in the genre, that's where I'd be, a variation on HOW THE SOLAR SYSTEM WAS WON (to borrow a joke from Clarke and Kubrick), especially since the working class privateer thing I was so high on has largely been eclipsed by FF.
I guess to make SF palatable to the masses you have to do it in a way that they don't realize it, so it is just a tremendously compelling story that just happens to have a valid integral background only a few folks will at first recognize.
Well, that explains why we get what we get, and why it ain't what I just described in the last 'graph, don't it?
trevanian
Rear Admiral
I agree about the graphics but I remember reading something in an old TREK or ENTERPRISE INCIDENTS comparing TMP and TWOK that was relevant.
The writer cited how TOS used tons of insert shots in editing, but that TMP did not rely on this much at all (hands grabbing controls, screens lighting up), and that TWOK was a welcome return to this (just look at the sneak attack sequence and Kirk's reply and you can see how many little inserts sneak in -- some bad, but most really effective at enhancing tension.)
About the only insert I remembered in TMP that wasn't a big display graphic was when Kirk pushed his schooldesk down over his lap in the wormhole, which wasn't a huge storypoint to me. Geez, I could watch TWOK again just to see the COMMIT light come on, or to see the little helm display jiggle when Sulu shoots the phasers in the nebula.
The one area in TMP where I REALLY think this could have benefitted was during the approach to VGER. You could have really been WITH Sulu as he did whatever it was he did to turn the ship while continuing to close (or again later, since I'm still of the opinion that he is flying the ship at warp when maneuvering 500 meters above that thing.)
One element that I think could have been better emphasized was where the heck the Enterprise was in regards to the V'Ger vessel. Before the Director's Edition, I had no idea that the effect shot before Kirk says "Hold relative position here" was actually showing the front of the the ship. So the Enterprise was entering the cloud from behind the whole time!
trevanian
Rear Admiral
The early GR draft of IN THY IMAGE (before it was even going to be TMP) had very specific direction about the approach, that you'd see a dot for vger onscreen, but that the starfield would be shifting sideways, indicating how Enterprise was swinging laterally as it approached (that whole unexplained 'conic-interception' flight path.)
Then vger would grow from a dot into a monstrosity very quickly (a la the FESARIUS in CORBOMITE MANEUVER), which is a realistic depiction of appearance given the velocities involved.
I think it would have been more clear about which end was which once they got close to the actual vger ship if somebody had made a reference to that macrame thing they first see as possibly being the engine, that way the audience would think that was the ass-end of the ship.
Then vger would grow from a dot into a monstrosity very quickly (a la the FESARIUS in CORBOMITE MANEUVER), which is a realistic depiction of appearance given the velocities involved.
I think it would have been more clear about which end was which once they got close to the actual vger ship if somebody had made a reference to that macrame thing they first see as possibly being the engine, that way the audience would think that was the ass-end of the ship.
My not have been a huge storypoint, but it was a visual clue that the seats had some sort of restraint, and why the seated crew weren't being hurled around like they were in TOS.
Offhand the inserts I recall are:
- The Vulcan master drops Spock's necklace
- Kirk pushes the "school desk" down
- Chekov pushes the sliders up to arm the torpedoes
- The tricorder dropping to the floor
- Spock locks the sickbay door
- The tight angle on the melted antennae leads
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My first exposure to the genre was an airing of Star Wars on CBS in late '86 or early '87, followed by the debut of Star Trek: TNG in the fall of '87, so I definitely did not come to sci-fi by way of literature. I've certainly tried reading it, but for whatever reason "hard sci-fi" just doesn't appeal to me.
But enough about me... damn, that's a big-ass cloud, whether it's 2 or 82 AU's.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
^I kinda think that filmed SF often has the effect on SF readers that is akin to what is described in REPO MAN, re: TV, that the more you watch, the less intelligent you become. My tastes in print SF have definitely gotten less sophisticated in the last decade or so, so I'm thinking it must be like my getting diabetes from too much junk food.
Star Trek drew me into science fiction at a very young age (I was three when it premiered and remember watching first airings of second and third season episodes), and gravitated to SF literature soon after. The first "normal" book I read was Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth (I still have it!) in second or third grade, and am fond of both hard SF and space opera with hard SF underpinnings. At the same time I started tearing through books by Niven, Hogan, Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein, I was watching a lot more TV than I do today, so I respectfully disagree with Trevanian's correlation of intelligence and TV viewing. I've just started Peter F. Hamilton's Temporal Void, so I don't think there's been any erosion of my tastes yet, although the time I have for reading fiction is so much diminished I no longer consider myself an avid reader.
Star Trek also introduced me to role-playing and war games as a teenager, and a lot of my first computer programs had Trek elements, so Trek got me into computer programming as well. If not computers in general.
All this exposure to SF in general has induced what I think of as a moderate psychosis ... I almost perpetually feel like I'm living in a real-life renaissance fair, surrounded by primitive technologies. I have to push buttons to make my computer work, mow my lawn by shoving a heavy, gas-powered lawn mower around my yard, wait weeks for a doctor to diagnose ailments (let alone fix them!), and employers actually expect me to get in an automobile, drive along roads, and do my job on their premises instead of my home ... every day! Give me a break!
Anyway, this is wandering off-topic again ...
I think the opening and closing shots of V'ger's cloud are either at a distance, looking at an outer shell, or from above, looking down at the entire field. The Klingon sequence itself shows several shots closer in:
An exterior view as the K'tinga wolfpack advances. Note that in some shots stars are still visible.
Tactical view of the first image.
A tactical view looking into the cloud just before photon torpedoes wink out.
A visual of the above angle just before V'ger retaliates.
A similar angle on the rec deck's viewer just after Epsilon IX is digitized.
My guess is that, per the tactical displays above and in Elton's original post, the cloud is spindle or yo-yo shaped with a thin, outer shell that wraps around the gap. That outer shell might be nearly invisible except at a distance, and does nothing to obscure the view of stars from within. I think the opening and closing shots of the cloud in the Klingon sequence shows V'ger's shell from above or below, since I doubt the outer band is dense enough to obstruct the spindle-shaped gap that is visible on closer approaches.
So, crudely recreating the tactical displays from the movie ...
We see an inner and outer field structure.
The Enterprise closes within and approaches the core of the spindle.
And ultimately catches up with the vessel at the heart of the cloud. As others have indicated, I've assumed the Enterprise approaches V'ger from behind.
Alternatively, the cloud might be oriented a little differently and the Enterprise might be approaching from a direction perpendicular to the axis of V'ger's movement, but I don't think that's supported by the movie.
Star Trek also introduced me to role-playing and war games as a teenager, and a lot of my first computer programs had Trek elements, so Trek got me into computer programming as well. If not computers in general.
All this exposure to SF in general has induced what I think of as a moderate psychosis ... I almost perpetually feel like I'm living in a real-life renaissance fair, surrounded by primitive technologies. I have to push buttons to make my computer work, mow my lawn by shoving a heavy, gas-powered lawn mower around my yard, wait weeks for a doctor to diagnose ailments (let alone fix them!), and employers actually expect me to get in an automobile, drive along roads, and do my job on their premises instead of my home ... every day! Give me a break!
Anyway, this is wandering off-topic again ...
I think the opening and closing shots of V'ger's cloud are either at a distance, looking at an outer shell, or from above, looking down at the entire field. The Klingon sequence itself shows several shots closer in:
An exterior view as the K'tinga wolfpack advances. Note that in some shots stars are still visible.
Tactical view of the first image.
A tactical view looking into the cloud just before photon torpedoes wink out.
A visual of the above angle just before V'ger retaliates.
A similar angle on the rec deck's viewer just after Epsilon IX is digitized.
My guess is that, per the tactical displays above and in Elton's original post, the cloud is spindle or yo-yo shaped with a thin, outer shell that wraps around the gap. That outer shell might be nearly invisible except at a distance, and does nothing to obscure the view of stars from within. I think the opening and closing shots of the cloud in the Klingon sequence shows V'ger's shell from above or below, since I doubt the outer band is dense enough to obstruct the spindle-shaped gap that is visible on closer approaches.
So, crudely recreating the tactical displays from the movie ...
We see an inner and outer field structure.
The Enterprise closes within and approaches the core of the spindle.
And ultimately catches up with the vessel at the heart of the cloud. As others have indicated, I've assumed the Enterprise approaches V'ger from behind.
Alternatively, the cloud might be oriented a little differently and the Enterprise might be approaching from a direction perpendicular to the axis of V'ger's movement, but I don't think that's supported by the movie.
I think the novel of TMP was a bit more clear that Enterprise was going to swing around the Intruder Cloud (V'ger) and approach it from the rear, following it back to Earth. When I saw the film in December of 1979 I was taking a "Trigonometry/Analytical Geometry" Course in 11th Grade High School at the time. So I understood what was going on, you even see Enterprise's flight path on one of Mr. Spock's Science Station Monitors displaying the parabola with its directrix. I felt I was fortunate at the time to be one of the few people who understood that bit of dialog. It could have been cleared up by Captain Kirk, or Lt. Ilia, or Mr. Spock to convey what was going on. Lt. Ilia could have simply said:
"Aye, aye Captian. Laying in a parabolic course to swing around intruder and follow it back to Earth.".
Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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