Spoilers The Sandman spoiler-filled discussion thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by The Nth Doctor, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Which is part of why I knew he was such perfect casting when that was announced. :lol:
     
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  2. YLu

    YLu Commander Red Shirt

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    I do find it interesting that a bunch of folks are saying the show's quality dips somewhat in the Doll's House arc, when for the comics many readers felt the second arc is when the series really finds its footing and "gets good."

    I wonder if that's down to the first arc having the more conventional plot by (mainstream) comic book standards, while the second arc has the more conventional plot by TV show standards.
     
  3. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Which folks though? Random online users? Meaningless IMDb ratings?

    I, for one, love the adaptation of The Doll's House and I think the show improved on the original story for the screen. I also think The Doll's House section is better part of the season (aside from "The Sound of Her Wings").
     
  4. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Garth of Algar Premium Member

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    Yep, that’s when Sandman started becoming Sandman.
     
  5. YLu

    YLu Commander Red Shirt

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    Reviews I’ve run into online, particularly from people who’ve never read the comic before.
     
  6. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Fair enough. I haven't looked beyond the surface level, but most professional reviews I've seen online have praised the show and its ability to capture the magic of the comics. But I'm only basing that on the headlines. I haven't bothered reading any of them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  7. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I take back earlier foolish comments. This is a good show. And I think it's definitely getting enough buzz to warrant a season 2 - Netflix does love buzz.
     
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  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I just watched Episode 1, and I'm intrigued for several reasons, one of said reasons being that it reminds me of a cross between Jim Hensen's Labyrinth, the works of Stephen King, the original Matrix film, and Marvel Studios' Doctor Strange.
     
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  9. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    I've reached the part of my reread where I've finally gotten to Overture itself and I'm delighted to see the contradiction isn't as bad as I thought. I did remember that The Corinthian appeared in Overture but I couldn't recall the extent of his appearance.

    Dream meets up with The Corinthian to discuss something very important before he's called away for the main adventure of Overture. After Dream departs, The Corinthian notes to the third person in the scene that he's going off to kill a young man behind a public house, eat his eyeballs, and run as fast as he can and not stop until he has reshaped the world. Which is exactly what he was doing when Dream catches him at the beginning of "Sleep of the Just"...and reshaping the world is exactly what The Corinthian of the show kept saying he wanted to do in Dream's absence.

    Not only that but Dream makes a brief visit to The Dreaming to pick up his helm before departing for his mission, where he briefly talks to Lucien and the dialogue is almost exactly the same as we see at the beginning of "Sleep of the Just."

    So while "Sleep of the Just" doesn't have any overt references to Overture, it doesn't explicitly contradict it as much as I thought. If we're so fortunate that the show is successful enough to adapt the original run and we get Overture, then it wouldn't be too difficult to work in the adventure and say that Dream was exhausted from his experience when he remembered he needed to meet with The Corinthian and then...
     
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  10. CaptainWacky

    CaptainWacky More than meets the eye Premium Member

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    I posted about the first six episodes in the other thread before, but I guess I should have posted in this one? So here's the same post but with added thoughts about the final four.

    I've watched the first six. I was very mixed based on the first four. Episode one was decent, though I really think a lot was lost by leaving out Roderick's fate (I know Gaiman says they tried to include and it didn't work but...find a way to make it work?) Episode two felt too short but the changes to story with Gregory worked really well. Episode 3 was the definite lowpoint. I like Jenna Coleman but the whole thing just felt too clean. A Constantine story should be gritty! Some pretty bad green-screening too. Changing Rachel's fate made the whole thing feel completely toothless and anti-climatic. Episode 4 was a little better: I'm pleased they included Nada, Christie was good as Lucifer; but I was very unimpressed by the visuals. Hell just didn't feel weird or big enough. It probably doesn't help that panels from the comic are burned into my brain.

    HOWEVER, episodes 5 and 6 were both very good, if not great! Probably done about as well as a tv adaptation of those stories could be. I was also happy that 24/7 wasn't really toned down at all from the comic version, which makes me wonder why the earlier episodes felt so soft. The Hob Gadling issue was possibly my favourite single issue from the comic and they really nailed it. Kirby Howell-Baptiste was a great Death. So yeah, I'm more optimistic going into the last four which hopefully keep up the quality of 5 and 6...

    UPDATE: Episodes seven to ten were good. Pretty faithful adaptation of The Doll's House, with some changes to Lyta's story which worked out...fine? I kind of missed her and Hector being former superheroes but I guess that wouldn't have fit. The one thing I wondered though was how this story worked for someone who hasn't read the book. It didn't really feel structured like a tv show. The way Rose went to travelling to England, then moving into a house with a bunch of wacky characters, then spending like two episodes at the Cereal Convetion, then the wacky house is sold and she's moved somewhere else...it felt like a bit too much moving around for four episodes, with possibly too many (wacky!) characters. I don't know, maybe it was fine.

    Boyd Holbrook was really good as The Corinthian. All the casting was strong, really, and Sturridge impressed me playing a very difficult character in Dream.

    So yeah I liked the season overall even if I thought some things could have been done better. I hope it gets a second.
     
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  11. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    I’m only on the second episode but it reminds me a lot of that sort of stagy TV presentation I associate with Gaiman and Prachett shows (excluding American Gods and I haven’t seen Good Omens). They all look similar to me. Dream’s breathy affectation is boring and a technique I care less for more and more.
     
  12. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    While that's a fair thought, I didn't have any issue with it. Felt like the story flowed just fine in a typical serialized fashion, no different characters traveling a lot in any other serialized show.

    But I'm speaking as a comic reader (and one who recently reread everything), so I'm not the best person judge that aspect of it. I'm also a big binger, so I don't typically notice episode breaks (aside from obvious ones like "24/7") because I just flow right into the next episode.
     
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  13. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    Episodes 4/5 were good IMO and started to show some potential. The hell showdown and the diner meltdown were off-kilter (in a good way). When asked "What defeats hope?" my first thought was "despair?" but I get what they're selling though it felt a bit pat to me. (Mind you I've read the first volume or two of Sandman but years and years ago and don't remember too much)

    I see episodes 2-5 were directed by the same person so it's interesting the latter two seem to work better (at least to me). I don't know if there were filmed in order and maybe were getting increasingly comfortable as it went.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
  14. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    The challenge played out essentially the same as in the episode except Dream faced the demon who had his helm and not Lucifer. Obviously, that was changed to give Gwendoline more to do and set-up her further role in season two if we get it. I think the "hope" answer lands harder in the comic because Dream is facing a mere demon instead of Lucifer because he simply stuttered that he had no answer.
     
  15. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

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    I thought Death was alright but she seemed more like Compassion or Comfort or something than Death. I guess when I go it'd be nice to have the beatific smile of some beautiful woman to hold my hand and take me away but it just felt a bit trite to me.

    I think the latter half with The Corinthian worked pretty well. David Thewlis and Boyd Holbrook's performances elevated and Stephen Fry is welcome. I found myself connected with Rose and Jed and wanted to know what would happen with them. The actor who played Desire, their talents were put to better use here than in Netflix's adaptation of Cowboy Bebop. The storyline in the latter half seemed to have a better through line and flowed better.

    I was flipping through the Sandman comic issues afterward and they definitely made it a lot more diverse (well, at least non-white).

    I found Patton Oswalt annoying at first, maybe just overly familiar at this point, but as the show went on I really liked his Matthew.

    I suppose I should work my way through Good Omens here at some point.

    That makes more sense. I think it may have an unintended side effect of diminishing Lucifer though as it makes them a bit of a chump. In the comic, the demon was a threat only because of the diminished state of Dream. To have Dream best Lucifer this early takes away from them IMO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  16. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah looking at the show still being in the top 10 and all the online praise and buzz, I would be absolutely shocked if it doesn't get a season 2. It might even be a flagship show!
     
  17. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    But that's precisely why Neil wrote Death that way. He has specifically said he wrote her in such a way in how he would liked to be greeted upon his passing. The fundamental nature of Death's characterization is compassion and comfort at the end, which is an important theme throughout the entirety of The Sandman run, as well as her two mini-series. Kirby Howell-Baptiste perfectly incapsulated that nature of her.

    On that, I completely agree. As talked about in my review, Preludes and Nocturnes (i.e. the first story arc leading up to the "The Sound of Her Wings" epilogue) is the weakest storyline of the entire run so it's not a surprise to me that portion of the season has come off the weakest as well (aside from the aforementioned epilogue and "24/7").

    That said, I also think the series managed to improve upon The Doll's House, ranging strengthening The Corinthian's villainous role to giving Rose, Jed, and Lyta more active roles in the storyline.

    Definitely, something that Neil has greatly embraced. He's been pretty clear if he were writing the comic today, it would be far more diverse. As well as using they/them pronouns for Desire instead of it/itself.

    You really must. I love the novel deeply but, like this series, its adaptation has improved on the original source material in certain ways. I think it helps that Neil has been involved in both productions (albeit more of a supervisory role with The Sandman after cowriting the first episode).

    Yeah, I felt that way, too. But it does provide Lucifer a strong motivation this time around to get revenge. In the comic, Lucifer was made because Dream embarrassed him in front of the legions of Hell by taking down one of his dukes. Here, she's embarrassed and mad because Dream actively defeated her. So it's a bit of a two-sided coin that change (which is appropriate considering that particular theme...).

    Like I've said before, considering Stranger Things has only one season left and Grace and Frankie just finished, The Sandman is in the prime position to become the new flagship show.
     
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  18. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Just finished the 6th episode and all i can say is Wow!

    I always liked Gaiman's work and have always enjoyed the movies based on his work and the novels i read but i never got around to read Sandman ( i was obviously aware of it and its reputation being a nerd ;) ).

    The show starts somewhat slow, establishing characters and the story - i have to admit it was a bit of a slog until the 4th episode when Dream goes into Hell and meets Lucifer ( Christie is brilliant in this but i would have loved to see Tom Ellis reprise his role). Their fight was the first time i was really gripped both how it was depicted and the theme surrounding it and from that moment i was completely hooked.

    The 5th episode continued that streak with a completely different theme which hit in another way but the 6th with Death and Dream's friendship was the high point for me so far both in idea and execution.

    I should have known Sandman being Neil Gaiman's work and i dare say he's one of the best, if not the best, current Fantasy writer.
     
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  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Garth of Algar Premium Member

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    Who are you and what have you done with crookeddy? ;)
     
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  20. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm up to the first episode of The Doll House adaptation, and the last three episodes have been fantastic.
    24/7 was absolutely fantastic, and seriously creepy as hell once Dee started fucking with everybody.
    The Sound of Her Wings was just as good as the comic, and Kirby Howell-Baptiste was fantastic as Death. Was stuff with Hob from a different issue, or made up entirely for the show? That was really good too, and tied in pretty nicely with the stuff from the Sound of Her Wings comic.
    The Doll's House was a nice start to the new arc. I like Rose so far, and I'm curious to see where it's going. The stuff with the Corinthian and the other serial killers was good too.
     
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