Spoilers The Sandman spoiler-filled discussion thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by The Nth Doctor, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Sandman, at the time and throughout the nineties, reached far beyond the world of comics. People who didn't read comics at all still read The Sandman, and people who had never read it were still familiar with the character and the imagery. It is a property that, contrary to what the guys running WB/Discovery think, has fans across all genders. It is also known around the world having been a best seller in many countries.

    As long as this show is good, and there is nothing I've seen so far to suggest otherwise, it is going to be a hit and will probably last at least four seasons if Netflix still has the money to produce shows over the next few years. It will also, like Watchmen and Game of Thrones, be a genre property that will be considered acceptable during awards season.

    As for the short stories, one-offs, I am inclined to think that we will see a number of those over the shows run but not all. Distant Mirrors may even be the one book cut entirely. Still, there are a number of stories I hope to see appear on this show. I was surprised that the show is even doing versions of the first run of stories as I had suspected we might just get an abbreviated introduction and move right into A Doll's House. So that too, makes me hopeful.

    As wayoung says, it is based on a novel. The novel won the Nebula and Hugo at the time. It is really good; much better than the television series which is really only loosely based on the novel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022
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  2. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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    Wellz we'll have to wait and see. I don't agree with your opinion on how much Sandman penetrated pop culture (the few people I know who have heard of it know it from the Audible adaptations, not the comic book - myself included among them) but we'll find out in a couple weeks.
     
  3. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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  4. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Gaiman's Hugo speech for American Gods famously ran thusly: "Fuck me, I won a Hugo." :)
     
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  5. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Just finished watching "Sleep of the Just" and I'm really enjoying it so far. I particularly like how the episode gave more depth to the characterizations for Roderick, Alex, and Ethel who weren't much in the original comic. I also loved the surprise appearance of Jessamy who didn't appear until "Thermidor"...despite her sudden (but expected) death (although how a dream could be killed by a mere shotgun...). Although it was odd to include Sykes and then not include his illicit affair with Ethel as part of her motivation to flee.

    One curious and perhaps unfortunate change is glimpsing what Dream was doing in the moments leading up to his capture to help set-up The Corinthian's story arc. This goes contrary what we see Overture, a story that I really hope they adapt if the show is fruitful. The contradiction isn't something that can't be worked around but it does change the significance of Dream's vulnerability at that moment.

    Be sure to stick around for the closing credits because each episode as an unique title sequence designed by Dave McKean!
     
  6. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    While a different take on the story, "24/7" captured the right level of creepiness, terror, and loss of agency as "24 Hours." The show itself has significantly tone downed the level of graphic horror (as evidenced by lack of human meat wallpaper in Rachel's apartment) and this episode was similarly lacked much of that physical gore, aside from recapturing some of the iconic moments like Bette putting nails through her eyes. Which I'm fine with because the psychological horror is what always disturbed me the most about that story and this episode reflected that well, even if in a different manner.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  7. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I watched the first episode so far, and I really enjoyed it.
    The expansions from the comic worked pretty well for me.
    Tom Sturridge was pretty good so far as Dream, he spent most of the episode in the glass sphere, but I liked what we got.
    Definitely looking forward to seeing more.
     
  8. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Upon completion of the season, overall I'm very happy with what we got. It's not perfect, particularly the first half of the season, but it's a worthy adaption of the material and I can only hope we will get more.

    I'll admit that much of what was adapted from Preludes and Nocturnes has come off a little clumsy. However, I don't mind since I also think it's the weakest of The Sandman collections, outside of "24 Hours" and "The Sound of Her Wings." And it's no surprise that those two stories come off the strongest here.

    As I predicted before, the latter was intertwined with "Men of Good Fortune" and I think the two stories flow into each other seamlessly. I loved the ongoing conversations and ribbing and lessons between Death and Dream and Kirby Howell-Baptiste stole every second she was on screen (although I was disappointed by the baguette tossing).

    The centuries spanning conversations between Dream and Hob were wonderfully realized with many lines appearing word for word. My sole disappointment was the absence of Hob realizing his mistake about slavery and having to live with that mistake, especially since we got Dream's lines about condemning it.

    The adaptation of The Doll's House was far stronger and I think the writers (and Neil) were much more comfortable with making changes to the storyline to make it flow better for television. I particularly enjoyed Rose's far more active role in the storyline, going as far as jumping into other people's dreams and even The Dreaming. Plus, Stephen Fry's performance as Gilbert was utterly sublime.

    There are a number of changes to the storylines and the character arcs throughout the whole season, but I think most of them are not only good, but are improvements on the original comics:
    • I imagine some of her characterization is borrowed from the original Constantine comics (such as the demon she confronts in the church), but I particularly liked the addition of Joanna's haunting nightmare memory of a failed mission that cost the life of her child friend (and in such a horrific manner!).
    • As I mentioned before, I like the expansion of Ethel's character and her story arc. She barely had any presence (or even lines!) in the comics but I loved seeing more dimensions in her relationship with John Dee and her confrontation with The Corinthian.
    • Speaking of whom, despite my aforementioned minor disappointment with the contradiction with Overture, I loved how The Corinthian's role was intertwined with Dream's lasting imprisonment, his attempts to utilize Ethel and John against Dream, and had a much more active role in Rose's story. I think that made him a much more terrifying villain than "just" the guy with teeth in his eye sockets who have a hunger for munching on eyeballs.
    • At first, I wasn't sure about making Lyta the best friend of Rose instead of a forced resident inside of Jed's dreamworld, but once I realized what the show was doing, I actually think it works better this way. First and foremost, this storyline gave her a much more active role in the story (much like Rose), instead of playing the passive, grieving wife who only sits on the sidelines while the story plays out. Additionally, her anger and fear of Dream was more understandably justified by losing Hector from her own mind here. I also like how her pregnancy was tied directly into Rose's dream vortex instead of a latent existence from before The Sandman.
    • I didn't miss Brute and Glob and I enjoyed their replacement, Gaunt, and her mini-arc. In fact, I much preferred the entire set-up in Jed's mind better in the series because it also gave him a much more active role in his dreams as the make-believe Sandman, while giving Lyta and Hector's story much more room to breath on its own.
    Even though we knew most of the casting going into today, I was pleasantly surprised to see Bill Paterson, Meera Syal, Ian McNeice, Lenny Henry, and Peter De Jersey pop up in various roles. I also wonder who voiced Azazel. Could it have been another role for Mark Hamil, someone left uncredited, or just someone whose voice and name I didn't recognize?

    Lastly, Martin Tenbones looked amazing. I cannot wait to see A Game of You if we get a second season.
     
  9. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Things that are tolerable in a pen and ink drawing can be too much to bear in a photograph
     
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  10. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    For what it’s worth:
    In The Sandman, Azazel is voiced by actor Roger Allam, who viewers will know from such hit television shows as Endeavour, Game of Thrones and The Thick of It. Most recently, he starred in BritBox and ITV's Murder in Provence.

    https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/fantasy/sandman-ending-explained-lucifer-azazel/
     
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  11. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Plus, it's easier to look away or for the eye slide away than it is from the screen that has your full attention.

    Thank you for that link! I know him from Game of Thrones, Ashes to Ashes, and V for Vendetta best but not well enough to recognize his name in the credits.
     
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  12. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just starting episode 5. So far so good. They have a lot of the tone and pacing feeling very much like the comics.

    My only real note so far (and a very minor one a that) that the Jenna Coleman looks far too clean and neat for Constantine. Given that Joan is written to be otherwise exactly as John was, I felt she should be quite a bit more dishevelled and scuzzy, especially given the episode literally depicts Joan living as a slob, and as much of a personal trainwreck as John ever was. The lack of a smoking habit also just feels weird to me, but far from a deal breaker I suppose.

    Going to hold fire on any real further commentary until I've seen the whole thing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
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  13. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

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    Watched the first three today. I only intended to watch one. Loved it and the wife loved it too.
     
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  14. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Yeah, I did notice that but I didn't think about it too much since all I know about Constantine is from The Sandman. The only thing that really leaped out to me was her final scene was more Clara than Joanna.
     
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  15. The Lensman

    The Lensman Commodore Commodore

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    Same here. Jenna’s Constantine looks too clean cut and just lacks the haggard, “total bastard” vibe of John. The lack of cigarettes also stands out.

    Finished the first 5 yesterday, enjoying it a lot so far. Though I can’t help but feel it feels rushed. That could easily just be me as I essentially know where the story goes though it’s been 20 or so years since I’ve read it. I’m also mixed on Patton Oswald doing the voice for Mathew. On the one hand he seems like an awesome guy and I enjoy listening to him talk nerd shit, and I enjoy him in live action productions but when it comes to voice acting, not so much. Because he doesn’t really do anything to vary his pitch or tone so I’m always aware that I’m listening to Patton Oswalt and not Mathew or even Pip in his short appearance. I feel the same about Mark Hamill as there’s only so many variations of his iconic Joker voice he can do. But I’m happy for these guys to have work so it’s a minor thing.

    So far Sturridge has been awesome as Dream for me. Really think all involved have done a great job so far. Now, onto the back five!
     
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  16. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I hate Netflix's binging format. Can't discuss individual episodes at all because everyone is at a different place.
     
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  17. crookeddy

    crookeddy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Btw, can wb cancel sandman? Or is Netflix in full control?

    It's number 1 on Netflix already for the week, so that's a good sign.
     
  18. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I believe since WB produces the show, they would have at least some control over whether or not it continues.
    I'm doing one episode a day so I watched episode 2.
    Cain and Abel were one of my favorite parts of Preludes and Nocturnes and I really liked what they did with them here.
    Gregory and Goldy/Ervine were great too.
    Was the stuff with Morpeus gather offerings for The Fates in the comic? I don't remember that.
    I kind of like how they're tying The Corinthian into the events of Preludes and Nocturnes. I haven't read The Doll's House yet, but I know he's a big part of that, and brining him in early is a nice way to tie the whole season together.
     
  19. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    That reminds me of another change that I really enjoyed: Instead of simply taking back Cain's and Abel's Letters of Commission to regain some power, Dream instead had to take Gregory's life to demonstrate how much it pained Dream to take back one of his creations.

    I particularly loved that Gregory's death had a direct correlation with Goldie/Iriving's birth, whereas in the comics, it was just an egg Cain gave Abel.

    No, that's new to the show to give his encounter more weight to the direness of his need for answers. In the comics, they merely appear to him in The Dreaming and then the rest plays out the same.

    Yeah, like I said in my review, that was one of my favorite changes. His role in the show is significantly different, even in The Doll's House and for the better: He's a much more sinister villain here.
     
  20. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I remembered something I forgot to ask before. Did they change how you pronounce Constatine, or is it just American vs English pronunciations? In the Arrowverse and other adaptations I've seen it's Constan-teen, but in this it's Constan-tine (like nine).