Not sure what this would accomplish other than appeasing those members of the Church of Saint Connelly who will then be able to hope for a second coming.
Spoilers The Red Suit
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Not sure what this would accomplish other than appeasing those members of the Church of Saint Connelly who will then be able to hope for a second coming.
Maybe because they don't A) have any time crystals on hand and B) getting trapped 950 years in a wasteland of a future that they'd always get snapped back to wouldn't actually have solved their problem. Or maybe you're thinking about the Church transport? As far as we've been told the only place the Suit has transports anything anywhere is 50,000 light years away from Earth, Doctor Burnham's home base. Again, doesn't really help.
Oh, and there's that pesky requirement of needing the energy of a Supernova on top of that.
In the end, tracking down each of these things at the very least doesn't really speed up the journey home.
And honestly, complaining about that is like arguing every single series series including TOS is ignoring available tools by not using the handy slingshot maneuver to fix each and every one of their problems.
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I've always believed that to enjoy TV science fiction in general and Star Trek in particular, forgiving the occasional ridiculous plot contrivance is just part of the deal.
You forget that Voyager would be using the suit at their leisure and not a panicked rush. And since they successfully altered their own history repeatedly they would have done so again.
You comment about the slingshot only emphasises how poor the continuity is, which is exactly my point. In 1966 they never imagined Trek would be rewatched or binge watched, yet in 2019 it's the norm. But instead of starting fresh and forging a new continuity with that in mind, they insist on tying their show into the greater whole which breaks it irreparably.
Okay good talk.
Pretty much. And we've seen that this works: half-baked ideas in S1 ripened nicely enough by the time they needed to be delivered. Oddities from early S2 are being sorted out as well: the connection between the Red Bursts and the Red Angel, ambiguous and even contradictory at first, is now a plot point for the very ambiguity and contradictions.
It's also something we don't exactly need to worry about, because the entire season has already been done. It just hasn't been aired yet. Early writing would have been a factor in late writing, and there would even have been time to do reshoots and re-edits (a bit of looping would probably suffice in most cases) if that's what it takes.
These are interesting points, actually. We haven't heard of a connection between Terralysium and the place Burnham or the Suit is being drawn to yet, save for the distance (and interestingly, the Red Bursts never went that far: the distance between the farthest two was but 30,000 ly in the initial analysis). And what the energy of a supernova had to do with it is unclear as well, because the Suit did not get a chance to charge up on that before the Klingons came - the phenomenon was still two days in the future when Dr. Burnham launched the Suit. Writing oversights? Plot points? Writing oversights turned into plot points? We'll have to wait and see.
Timo Saloniemi
"They" in this case is Section 31. Keeping things under wraps is the bread and butter by which they live and breathe! And even they have now lost it, to all appearances. (There's still more story to play out, of course, but I rather doubt it will end with the suit or its creator back in their hands. We'll see.)
How could she make use of technology that may well not even exist anymore, and which she probably wouldn't have had any way of knowing about at the time, even if it did?Yeah, that would definitely stop Janeway reusing the tech to get her crew home
The entire story of "Endgame" (VGR) rests upon precisely the crux that she wasn't willing to do that, until stewing over it for years after the fact, and then going back to convince her younger self. The Janeway we'd known for most of the series respected the Temporal Prime Directive...
ADMIRAL JANEWAY: Oh, the almighty Temporal Prime Directive—take my advice, it's less of a headache if you just ignore it.
CAPTAIN JANEWAY: You've obviously decided to, or you wouldn't be here.
ADMIRAL JANEWAY: A lot's happened to me since I was you.
CAPTAIN JANEWAY: Well, I'm still me, and this is still my ship, so no more talk about what's going to happen until I decide otherwise. Understood?
CAPTAIN JANEWAY: You've obviously decided to, or you wouldn't be here.
ADMIRAL JANEWAY: A lot's happened to me since I was you.
CAPTAIN JANEWAY: Well, I'm still me, and this is still my ship, so no more talk about what's going to happen until I decide otherwise. Understood?
It's your own comments here which "make an absolute mockery" of that.
(Not to mention that the tachyon device she obtains from Korath, along with Barclay's tachyon-based method of opening a micro-wormhole in "Pathfinder" [VGR], and even the Trills' efforts in "Rejoined" [DS9], could well have sprung from the very "temporal arms race" between the Klingons and Feds that yielded the suit to begin with—whether they realize it or not—just as Seyetik's protomatter-induced re-ignition of the star in "Second Sight" [DS9] was meant to have grown out of the Marcuses' research for Project Genesis.)
-MMoM
That they had 2 kinds of technology to go anywhere, anywhen decades before TOS is absurd. If Federation scientists could figure it out then, Federation scientists working from the same concepts, armed with a century more knowledge and technology would easily manage it too and solve the distance-related issues of Voyager or DS9 in no time. The idea the technology could be buried for over 100 years in Trek's world is right up there with Ancient Astronauts.
She still did it. And attempted numerous crazy schemes to get home during the run of the series.
The device in "Endgame" which was far more bulky and awkward than the "primitive" technology shown in Discovery. It's miniaturized into an Iron Man-style space suit! No amount of pedantics make this show fit with the greater whole in anything more than the broadest, X-Men movieverse level of broad strokes.(Not to mention that the tachyon device she obtains from Korath, along with Barclay's tachyon-based method of opening a micro-wormhole in "Pathfinder" [VGR], and even the Trills' efforts in "Rejoined" [DS9], could well have sprung from the very "temporal arms race" between the Klingons and Feds that yielded the suit to begin with—whether they realize it or not—just as Seyetik's protomatter-induced re-ignition of the star in "Second Sight" [DS9] was meant to have grown out of the Marcuses' research for Project Genesis.)
-MMoM
What if for most of the viewers such broad strokes are enough for continuity? After all, even without DSC we have ENT -> TOS -> TNG where technological progress is not shown in a logical way. For example T'Pol's tricorder versus equivalents from TOS and even TNG.
Then that's fine, each to their own. But makes the point-by-point rebuttals above seem utterly pointless.
Planets move. Any time travel device which actually purely moved you through time as you seem to want without any spatial adjustment almost certainly would have her reappear in space (unless she was so unlucky as to materialize inside something). The odds of reappearing in the relatively tiny space of open air within an atmosphere would be ridiculously small. The slingshot maneuver and other time travel methods invent tons of technobabble to get around this so that people who go back in time in earth orbit wind up on 20th century earth instead of 20th century open space somewhere far bar beyond alpha centauri.
Now, we don't know that the suit wasn't supposed to have this directional capability right off the bat. But we don't know that it was supposed to have it either. In fact, we don't know yet for a certainty that it does have them at all. For all we know, in order to arrive exactly where and when she wants, Dr. Burnham has to use a spaceship to fly to a specific point in space that she has calculated is the exact location of 'planet y' 950 years earlier. Probably an unlikely possibility, but the only way to tell for sure is to wait and see what happens on the show.
In all honesty, I'm not a fan of the Red Angel storyline at all, especially the section 31 connection or the reveal of Burnham's mom (or the actress that plays her), but you guys are trying WAY too hard to 'prove' the utter impossibility of this stupid suit. It's really not that big of a deal, and you don't have have all the facts yet to judge by.
Another good point. And the area of a supernova 950 years later will be very toxic. See the Crab Nebula for a real world example. Interesting.
As there are no standard coordinates in space nor an absolute location given how we understand space-time you are correct she and all others should be in space. However Trek seems to anchor everyone else. Hmmm.
As there are no standard coordinates in space nor an absolute location given how we understand space-time you are correct she and all others should be in space. However Trek seems to anchor everyone else. Hmmm.
Why "easily" and "in no time"? Why not eventually, after many failed attempts and other diversions and complications, lacking critical pieces of the puzzle? (Like stable time crystals, for instance.)
But we know Section 31 has actively scrubbed all records of itself by the time DS9 rolls around. And I would fully expect they could be rather ruthless in doing so. The very fact that Sloan was unconcerned about revealing himself to Bashir and others suggests that they were quite confident of this ability. (In the end, too confident. Yet it had clearly worked for them up to then.)
As Odo surmises in "Inquisition" (DS9), "they've learned to cover their tracks very well"; and as Sisko says in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (DS9), they're "very meticulous" about it. Per "When It Rains..."/"Tacking Into The Wind"/"Extreme Measures" (DS9), they had agents at all levels of Starfleet conspiring to help them "make up fake files" and "destroy research" they considered threatening to their aims, to the point where eventually their secrets would "exist only in the minds of a very select group of people." Per "The Dogs Of War" (DS9), even the Federation Council was willing to "look the other way" when convenient—"a tidy little arrangement," in Odo's words.
(Also, ancient astronauts are very much a real part of Trek's world.)
As a rule, she steadfastly refused to break with Starfleet directives for expediency's sake, and emphasized this point repeatedly over the course of the series, with "Endgame" (VGR) being the exception that proved it.
That device was of Klingon origin, and in any case, I wouldn't call it "far" bulkier...
Why did she have to go to the Klingons? Explicitly, because Starfleet Command had forbidden such actions. This came up not only in context of "Endgame" (VGR), but other episodes like "Timeless" (VGR), where the future Harry and Chakotay were "fugitives...the Galaxy's most wanted...on two counts of high treason and conspiracy to violate the Temporal Prime Directive."
And within DSC itself, the tech is portrayed as anything but "primitive." Why exactly do you think they gave Section 31 TNG-style combadges, and had Pike voice surprise over them, if not to telegraph to us that they are a step (or several) ahead of Our Heroes™ in terms of advancement? (See also: synthesizing Tyler and baby's heads "down to their neural mapping and genetic codes...not your everyday Federation espionage"; active camouflage and variable-geometry warp nacelles; Terran memory extractor, etc.)
I find it to fit as well as the rest of Trek fits together—which is to say, not seamlessly, but better than any fifty-odd-year-old franchise has any right to. Frankly, to my mind, "pedantics" could just as aptly describe your own exaggeration of every perceived discrepancy into something more severe and egregious than it actually is, or need be viewed as. Trek continuity may be a glass house, but you're the one casting stones here, so it should hardly come as a shock that you find it broken!
-MMoM
How so? If Star Trek has never had that consistent of a continuity, especially regarding time travel, then how does it break it? I mean, I know this is a mileage thing but I struggle with the idea that there is irreparable damage to continuity if the continuity was not consistent anyway.
Well put.
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Do they? Or is Section 31 operating as the SS of Starfleet just another retcon, like atmospheric forcefields and everything else?
This basically says there's been no big technological change in Trek for over 100 years - and DSC's retconning of Nemesis-level tech into the pre-TOS era is one of the biggest gripes Disco has in fitting in with the rest of Trek. They want to have their reboot cake (showing off all their cool new CG and makeup effects to the max) and eat it too (be part of the established 50 years of continuity)
It's a your mileage may vary thing. Nobody's tried to explain why we don't have non-time-travel versions of the Iron Angel suit in use anywhere else in the Trek timeline. Or even space suit helmets that do the Stargate movie Ja'fa helmet foldaway thing. IRL, they have the tech to depict it so they do, and pretend it was always like that, and I don't buy it.
There are all sorts of amazing things that appeared in TOS and TAS which had been put in a cupboard 80 years later for TNG et al with no explanation why as well. Nothing new to that at all. That's just how the Federation rolls.
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That's coming in the follow up episode to "Catspaw."
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