It has nothing to do with 'what pairing I would have preferred." I don't care about 'pairing.' I don't watch Star Trek to see if Crewman X hooks up with Crewman Y.
The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...
- Thread starter JeremyLH
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It has nothing to do with 'what pairing I would have preferred." I don't care about 'pairing.' I don't watch Star Trek to see if Crewman X hooks up with Crewman Y.
But then they live happily ever after and have babies!
Or one of them is senselessly murdered by Gul Dukat.
Or they finally get married, but they are really quicksilver clones from a Demon Planet.
Or one of them gets a growth spurt just as the other one is caught dealing drugs.
Or one of them is a Maquis spy and has to be sent to prison, and the other one becomes god.
I must inform yo that the post you quoted which starts with the words The success of the Seven of Nine character has nothing whatsoever to do with the catsuit was not a quote from my post but a reply from Jeremy LH to one of my posts. I inform that just to avoid any misunderstanding.
As for Seven, there was a time when I really loathed the character, mostly because of the fact that Kes was kicked out to make room for her and alll that media focus on her, all that BS about "sexy Seven" and "the beaautiful Borg". Not to mention all the crap from Berman and Braga about "Seven saved the show". Now I have a more objective view of the character and can understand why people like her. But I still wonder if she had been that popular if they had dressed her up in a Starfleet uniform from the start.
I never really liked the Borg. I thought they were OK villains in Q Who and The Best of Both Worlds but when they brought in Hugh and The Borg Queen and "velourized and humanized the Borg, then I lost interest. As I see it, when a series bring in a totally superior enemy and their superiority finally is broken in some way because "the Good guys" will ultimately win, then this once formidable enemy is finished and the magic is gone. That happened to the Borg already in TNG.
The best villains in Star Trek were the Cardassians followed by the Dominion.
I agree.
I have never understood why people are so obsessed with numbers. In fact, Kes was actually like 17-18 year old when she met Neelix. As I see it, the age thing could have been resolved by explaining that the Ocampa planet had an orbit of 10 years around the sun, thus the "2 years old" digits.
So true
I'm happy that she wasn't killed off.
Even in my worst anti-Seven days, I never wanted to see the character killed of because I knew that many loyal fans would hate it and I would also know how it would feel to see their favorite killed off.
My issues with Seven's catsuit lie largely with the fact that it had a built-in corset, and Jeri Ryan had trouble breathing while wearing it. No one should have to work under those conditions.
I totally agree.
I'm not so sure that Seven had been that popular without the catsuit and all the media fuss about it. But I totally agree on your comments about Braga and the gang. Braga was sickly obsessed by women in catsuits.
I totally agree here.
I've never been that interested in pairings when it comes to shows like Star Trek and other series I like as well because it often interferes with the stories. On some occasions I can accept them if they contribute anything to the story.
I actually think that "a happy ending between" Janeway and Chakotay could have been OK as a conclusion to the series but I agree on the fact that it wouldn't have looked appropriate with a romance between the Captain and the First Officer during the long way home.
The Chakotay-Seven thing was crap and downright insulting to the many fans who wanted a "happy ending" between janeway and Chakotay. Another finger in the face of the fans from Berman, Braga and their lackeys.
Tom-B'Elanna was sort of OK. It worked but I have a feeliong that it was made up by the "writers" only to show that Tom and B'Elanna still were main characters after the show had been turned into The Seven Of Nine Show with Janeway and The Doctor as sidekicks.
The Kes-Neelix relationship was OK from the start due to the situation in the beginning of the series but it was doomed in the long run. It should have been ended at least in season 2 and in an apppropriate way with the break-up taking place during 2-3 episodes.
As for relationships if I really have to go into that I think that janeway-Chjakotay and Tom-B'Elanna was OK but I also have a "plan B.
Janeway-Mark Johnsson
Chakotay-B'Elanna
Tom-Kes
Kim-Seven
But honetsly, when it comes to Voyager, there is only one relationship I really would have gone for if I had been in charge:
Neelix-Samantha Wildman!
Now that would have been logical and nice too. Not to mention that it would make Neelix's attention to Naomi Wildman look better. OK, I've never had any "bad thoughts" about Neelix because of that but I know that some people have complained about his interest for Naomi.
OK, when I'm still at it, I must present a thought that I have had the recent years about pairing off two of my absolute all-time Star Trek favorite characters!
I must admit that I never even heard of Homeboys In Outer Space.
As for characters, if I don't like the characters in a series, then I don't watch it. One of the main reasons I stopped watching Enterprise is that I found all the characters except Trip Tucker and Porthos bland and boring, OK I was against a retro series from the start and the way it looked on screen (not even close to TOS) plus the fact that they were constantly messing up accepted Trek history in it and that I couldn't stand seeing bermman's and Braga's names turn up on the screen (after what happened in that season 6 episode of Voyager) but the bland characters was one of the main reasons I stopped watching it after five episodes.
The same for Star Trek Discovery. I quit watching that after three episodes because I found the whole series dull and gloomy, the characters miserable and most of all because of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle "Klingons" which they have in the series, another example of some idiot producer who just have to put his (or her) mark on the series.
There are other series outside Star Trek I've stopped watching for the same reasons. Bad characters or character destruction.
I still watch Picard occasionally, only because it's Star Trek 24th century series, Picard and some TNG characters shows up and for some weird hope that it will change to the better. But honestly, I find it dull and gloomy too. As for Seven, she's the only positive thing that happened in that series.
It's ironic, isn't it? I really loathed Seven once. Now I find her the best character on Picard!
As for Nemesis, there were many things I didn't like in it so it's not one of my favorite movies.
What really ruined it for me was that they killed off Data. How rude and unnecessary!
but it might have worked. Calypso is, to me, one of the prettiest love stories Star Trek has done
There’s a reason why you never heard of it and you didn’t miss anything. I watched about five minutes of one episode before deciding that I had better ways to spend my time.
I never got into either series because by the time they aired, I’d already lost interest in the franchise. My brother has watched through Enterprise and from what he’s told me about the series, I’ll be just fine skipping it. He’s currently watching through Discovery and Lower Decks and sometimes complains that Discovery is often just stupid.
I don’t mind gloomy. It’s the ’dull‘ part that I have a problem with.
Kate Mulgrew was really upset about Jennifer Lien being let go and then the production making the ’new kid on the block’ the star of the series and she took it out on Jeri Ryan. She later admitted she targeted the wrong person and apologized to Ryan.
The thing to keep in mind is neither Ryan nor the character 7o9 had anything at all to do with Kes being dropped from the series.
She was dropped from the series because the production had no idea what to do with the character.
Maybe it’s just because I like Tom Hardy. I enjoyed Nemesis.
Despite being eight pages long, here's my answer:
"Why was Kes a beloved character?"
Because she was nice and optimistic in a Star Trek-y way.
"Why was Kes a beloved character?"
Because she was nice and optimistic in a Star Trek-y way.
Linx, btw, I don’t believe it ever came down to Kes or Harry Kim either. The production wanted a low man on the totem pole type character and wanted to keep the same guy so that they wouldn’t have to recast the part with a new character and actor or actress. Garrett Wang just misunderstood the situation. Even though they told him straight out.
They were never going to either fire him or give him a promotion.
If Wang had been more ballsy about it like Robert Beltran, they might have started paying out to him like they did Beltran. That’s why they just let him go on thinking they didn’t like him. It was less expensive that way.
They were never going to either fire him or give him a promotion.
If Wang had been more ballsy about it like Robert Beltran, they might have started paying out to him like they did Beltran. That’s why they just let him go on thinking they didn’t like him. It was less expensive that way.
They refused to even let him direct, which goes beyond normal plans. Mind you, Ron Moore was the guy who explained how everything behind the scenes of Voyager was a targshow. Ranging from the fact all the writers hated writing in Voyager's restrictions, UPN just wanted TNG 2.0, and the cast's morale was horrifically low.
In fairness, I heard they wouldn't let him direct because of his poor work attitude (remember he was removed from a couple of episodes season 3 for this) and also his refusal to go to "Star Trek directing school" and put the hours in OF HIS OWN TIME to learn the ropes. Jonathan Frakes' started shadowing other directors (pre production, on set, editing etc) during season 2 of TNG, and didnt actually direct a show until over a year later. All the other actors-turned-directors did the same.
Yet allegedly Wang couldn't be bothered. According to Frakes, Stewart, Roxann Dawson and many others, Rick Berman was very supportive of their directorial desires, but always made it clear he wouldn't just hand it to them on a plate...
https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/ent/garrett-wang.html
Notably this never was brought up in his version and it strikes me that since he asked three times its more likely to believe him than the others.
Notably this never was brought up in his version and it strikes me that since he asked three times its more likely to believe him than the others.
That's true. Just look at how badass she was at the end of the Thaw. And that was without unnecessary character-Shilling.
She displayed both leadership and her scientific mind in that episode.
I liked Kes and consider Before and After a top 10 episode of the series 
People have been trying to come up with rational explanations for that single pip on Harry's collar for a long time. And I have debunked them all. Maybe someone will come up with a reason I can't debunk... but not today.
Harry was NOT a "low man on the totem pole" character. He was a bridge officer, he was included at senior staff meetings, and he was sometimes even left in command of Voyager. Indeed, he served all the functions of a lieutenant, he simply wasn't granted the rank. Furthermore, the purpose of a "low man" is to either be inexperienced (Harry rarely showed this, and should have outgrown it in a couple years), incompetent (Harry was not), or the butt of abuse (Janeway did not countenance such behavior).
The "low man" argument ranks with the "someone gotta be duh ensign" argument... it presents a reason, but it's not a good one.
It may not be a good reason, but it has the virtue of being the actual reason. (As in, that Braga is reported to have said this when Wang asked why his character didn't get promoted).
Well then.........what years were you a producer/writer on the show?
I believe the stories about Mr. Wang's issues. Even he admits to them, though to hear him tell they weren't that serious. But who wouldn't understate their own guilt?
I would have been fine if they had axed his character, either through death or departure (there were several opportunities for both). Failing that, said character should have been handled intelligently.
That was one of Voyager's best moments, and it had some good ones.
FEAR: "I'm afraid."
JANEWAY (deadly whisper): "I know."
FEAR: "Drat."
liked Kes and consider Before and After a top 10 episode of the series
I liked her as well, and consider "Before and After" an illustration of what the series could have been, maybe even should have been. Major characters were lost. Leadership roles changed. People were promoted. A civilian joined the crew proper. People were married, babies were born. The Doctor had a name, and even a little vanity (he looked pretty good with hair). The crew EVOLVED.
Not saying the series had to go exactly that way. Janeway could have been swapped with Chakotay, for instance, and the Harry/Linnis pairing would have been a hard sell if we'd seen Linnis as a toddler only two or three years before. But the overall premise was better than the static "wear out the reset button" seven years we got.
Regarding the Harry matter, there's an active forum about his non-promotion. The mods have expressed concern about this topic leaking into others, so we might want to continue this discussion there.
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^ I'm not sure what happened there, but KennyBoo wrote the question 'what years were you a producer/writer on the show' , not me.
People have been trying to come up with rational explanations for that single pip on Harry's collar for a long time. And I have debunked them all. Maybe someone will come up with a reason I can't debunk... but not today.
Considering that the production flat out said that "someone's gotta be the ensign" according to Wang's own account, it's not exactly a mystery and I don't know why you think there's even room to debunk that explanation.
He was the lowest ranking officer among the the bridge officers in a series that focused on the bridge officers most of the time.
I never said it was a good reason. It is, however, the reason that the production itself gave according to Wang's own account.
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