The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...
- Thread starter JeremyLH
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None taken. It's more of a terminology note that I just happen to know something about.
BTW, does anyone know how to edit posts once they are posted?
Agreed, and it's counter productive to continue to plant statutory rape every time Kes and Neelix is discussed. The showrunners did move on from the idea, but I wouldn't keep saying such accusations if Neelix' age was never established. Unless it was.
Oddish?
The fact that no one made any issue of Neelix age implied that he had a normal lifespan.
Beyond seeing the Threshold episode the first time it aired, I don't actually remember watching or ever discussing the series with anyone. I remember having a laugh with a buddy at how bad 'Threshold' was but that is it. I came across an episode in syndication from time to time but never really watched any of them.
In 2019, when I was watching through the series for the first time, I got to discussing it with family and friends who'd also watched it at some point and I got to reading about it online. A few of the characters came to stand out in conversations and one of them was Kes. No one I know IRL likes Kes and most people online disliked the character as well.
It all came back to the age. Presenting Kes as a being two years old had screwed up the character concept in one way or another for almost every single person I came across that had something to say on the subject.
Kes was an alien from outer space. If people had an issue with her age then I am having trouble with these same people who call themselves Star Trek fans and don't have a clue the barriers this franchise had broken through. HELLO - it's STAR TREK!!!
No, they were not. It's a cheap source of drama that Trek has had a poor average in wielding well. That said, of the pairings I think Tom/B'Elanna was OK, certainly towards the end as it highlighted a measure of growth for the characters.
It's funny this observation. I was mildly OK with Nemesis when it came out but it still doesn't rank well for me as a movie because it's poorly put together. Contrast that with Picard which I thoroughly enjoy but it struggles with being overstuffed with things. Both are Star Trek to me, but for different reasons.
This makes no sense. It's Star Trek is not a carte blanche to do whatever and expect people to accept it. Doesn't make them less fans for having a personal thing around a person's age. Hell, I saw a discussion around an age gap in another show as though that was a bad thing too. People have personal limits.
Why is Kes' age an issue? 
She was two. Two years is over twenty percent of a nine year lifespan. She was the equivalent of a twenty-something adult. She looked like an adult and had basically the mental maturity of a human that old.
That's true. Trek fans are just as prone to being narrow-minded as anyone else.
She was two. Two years is over twenty percent of a nine year lifespan. She was the equivalent of a twenty-something adult. She looked like an adult and had basically the mental maturity of a human that old.That's true. Trek fans are just as prone to being narrow-minded as anyone else.
That video is awesome. It sums up Voyager's strengths and weaknesses very nicely, and highlights some really good episodes. And despite being positive about the show, reminds us how much better it could have been.
Enterprise was killed by several things, including transporters, and the "normal" weapon set of phasers and photon torpedoes.
The uniforms weren't the only problem. They were just a symbol of the premise that Voyager had and didn't use.
You misunderstood me. I was able to accept the notion that Kes was physically and emotionally mature at age two. And, I realize that Tom and Neelix understood this too (and that Harry understood the same about Linnis).
But I also understood that some people could not make that assumption. For them, any romance involving Kes would be "creepy".
Wonder what their kids would have looked like, considering that their mom was gorgeous and their dad was... well, something other than gorgeous.
Right. Star Trek is not a carte blanche to do whatever to you but Star Trek has dived into controversial positions such as a character who looked like the devil and have green blood, interracial relationships, homosexuality, and heck... whatever may offend. It is what it is, and if you don't know that it explores these topics and make some offended or uneasy I am happy because Star Trek should continue to boldly go... even if some will gripe on it. Star Trek fans should know what Star Trek is and if so-called fans are offended by the franchises nature? Then it's time to move on from Star Trek because they've grown too old for the concept.
Why is Kes' age an issue?
I make some of that as part of our culture and body of laws. For us, there is an age of consent, and it is enforced regardless of a person's appearance or emotional maturity. If you sleep with a 15-year-old who looks and acts like she's 23, you're probably going to jail. The judge will not care how old she looked!
However, such a rule cannot be effectively applied to a species that will only live for nine years, given that the age of consent is well above that.
Even if they're stranded 75,000 light-years from planet Earth?
You and I can understand that human sensibilities do not apply in the case of a being like Kes. Other people might not.
Why is Kes' age an issue?
That's true. Trek fans are just as prone to being narrow-minded as anyone else.
some species need to breed quickly because they have very limited lifespans. Mayflies, lemmings, and so on. But whatever else was going on with her, Kes was humanoid. Her life experiences were limited by the fact she was two years old. That is a component of her species. She would be on an even keel with another Ocampan, but from what Neelix said on the show concerning his past, he was far older then 2. Kes was played by a 20something actress who did not exactly look old for her years.
I'm not saying that Neelix was a pedo, or that the relationship was on that equivalent. Neelix was creepy though. You can be openminded about the future and still know creepy when you see it. Creepy doesn't wash off. Most humans, even in a Star Trek future would, I suspect say, "she's 2. swipe left."
First of all, the term "pedo" does not apply here. We can all agree that Kes was physically mature. The issue at hand is exploiting an emotionally immature individual.
Second, Neelix did not seem creepy to me. He was simply the anti-Tuvok of the group. He interacted with people in a very effusive and energetic way, including the woman he loved.
Third, probably true about swiping left. However, I also think that regardless of how any of us might regard Neelix, Tom was a good and honorable person. He would not have considered an exploitative relationship. The love that he described sharing with Kes in "Before and After" was very genuine, and very emotional. It's too bad we never got to see it develop.
I don't think finding one relationship "creepy" or "uncomfortable" or whatever other descriptor people might attached to it doesn't mean they should just be done with the franchise. That seems just as odd as being offended by show to me.
I just got done watching the retrospective and it pretty much sums up my thoughts and feelings toward the show over all.
I was surprised to find that Threshold was actually in the second season and not in the first. That's how little interest I took in the series when it first premiered.
I think it was a lot easier to watch through the series from the start after having watched seasons 4 though 6 because those seasons made it feel like it was worth it to learn the backstory.
I was surprised to find that Threshold was actually in the second season and not in the first. That's how little interest I took in the series when it first premiered.
I think it was a lot easier to watch through the series from the start after having watched seasons 4 though 6 because those seasons made it feel like it was worth it to learn the backstory.
That right there pretty much sums it up.
The reason it didn't effect the Tom Paris the same way is because by the time that avenue was explored, we'd already gotten to know Tom Paris and that we he wasn't a creep and we'd had come to see how the series kind of functioned and that Kes wasn't really two years old.
But Neelix was introduced as being in a relationship with a 2 year old from the start before we knew anything else and that's a terrible way to introduce a character that the creators want the audience to like.
Watching the retrospective, it occurs to me that seasons 1-3 look like the kind of series that might be canceled at any time.
By the time Voyager aired, I’d already watched through several series that had been canceled early in their run and if I liked the series and wanted to see where it was going, this was always frustrating. The first seasons of Voyager looked like one of those kinds of series to me.
The other thing that occurs to me Is that it’s according to Garrett Wang himself, not the production, that he was the one who’s head was on the chopping block and his appearance in People saved his job. As such, it might not be true.
I think it’s by no coincidence that Kes leaves the show at the same time that the series finds its footing, figures out what it’s doing and where it’s going.
By the time Voyager aired, I’d already watched through several series that had been canceled early in their run and if I liked the series and wanted to see where it was going, this was always frustrating. The first seasons of Voyager looked like one of those kinds of series to me.
The other thing that occurs to me Is that it’s according to Garrett Wang himself, not the production, that he was the one who’s head was on the chopping block and his appearance in People saved his job. As such, it might not be true.
I think it’s by no coincidence that Kes leaves the show at the same time that the series finds its footing, figures out what it’s doing and where it’s going.
After thinking about both what Wang was told according to his own account and what happened to Robert Beltran according to his own account, I'm of the opinion that Wang's head was probably never on the chopping block. Beltran's job as an actor and Chakotay's job as a character was to play second fiddle to Janeway. And he did that reliably enough that they were willing to pay him a higher salary instead of losing him in that position.
Harry Kim's job as a character was to be the low man on the totem pole.. And he did that job reliably enough that they didn't want to have to find a new person for the position. If they might axe him, why not give hm a promotion first? They didn't do either because either way would have left the position of 'low man on the totem pole' open. It's easier to keep to the same guy in the position the entire series.
Harry Kim's job as a character was to be the low man on the totem pole.. And he did that job reliably enough that they didn't want to have to find a new person for the position. If they might axe him, why not give hm a promotion first? They didn't do either because either way would have left the position of 'low man on the totem pole' open. It's easier to keep to the same guy in the position the entire series.
And that just shows what muffinheads they were. It wasn't a totem pole, it was an ensemble cast. DS9 did fine without an ensign, and Voyager would have as well. The excuse "someone gotta be the ensign" holds exactly as much water as every other "reason" why Harry wasn't promoted: None.
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