The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...

[STEPhon IT]

First of all, the nine-year lifespan. That was a mistake and real stupid thinkig from the writers. A being with such short lifespan could never develope into anything more than a primate. The whole idea was obviously something the writers came up with only to have something totally new to the series, sort of "oh, we never had that before". When they realized that the whole concept didn't work, they just kept on going, mostly omitting the whole concept.

What they should have done was to come up with a way to change the lifespan to a human one.

But if the showrunners did that than she would be like everybody else; the limited lifespan was interesting if the series was open to explore it. She was the first Star Trek recurring alien where the species didn't live over a century of more; I would've handled it, if I was writing the series, where Kes was oblivious of her limited life and the Doctor discovered it and didn't disclosed it with her. I enjoyed the expansion of her character and her superpowers, a part of me wondered if Kes could actually manipulate warp probabilities, alter time or make it stagnant? Anyway, I wasn't sure her lifespan had to be literal, could she or her beings, the Ocampa, may have a limited life in the fabrics of reality but transcends their existence within space time.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

MARRY ME.

But first, allow me to expand on your theory; not only does Kes embody all that's wrong with the show, but she also fails to embody what was right about it. "Star Trek: Voyager," like "Deep Space Nine," was a show about flawed people confronting their mistakes. (Jeri Taylor's Mary-Suing of Janeway in the episodes she wrote notwithstanding.)

Janeway fancied herself a do-gooder; but was confronted multiple times with her past morally questionable decisions, by various characters, including herself (literally, in the series finale!). And we also at times saw how, as Chakotay said, she "doesn't know when to back down." ("Equinox," and "Course: Oblivion," for example.)

Harry Kim was kind and trusting, to a fault.

After Neelix got over Kes and became the ship's ultimate Nice Dude, we saw how his overly-"nice" attitude grated on the other characters, especially Tuvok.

Seven of Nine is ludicrously accused of being a "Mary Sue" by her haters, because of her superpowers; but what really made her such a break-out character was her story arc, which revolved entirely around her swallowing her pride and owning her shortcomings.

Kes, by all accounts, should have fit right into this. With her background as an alien with a Mayfly life span, raised underground in a closed-off society, she should have been even more naive and vulnerable than Harry Kim. Among these non-Ocampa, she should have been almost as socially challenged as Seven of Nine ( imagine Kes having to learn that you're not supposed to go digging through your shipmate's thoughts, or wander into their dreams un-invited). And her desire to experiment with her powers could've led to all kinds of X-Men-esque conflicts and dangers. Kes should have been a character like Luna Lovegood; kind and innocent in her strange alien way, but someone that the rest of the cast should struggle to understand, and at times maybe tolerate.

But no. Instead, despite her background, she starts the series as an oldschool Disney princess. Perfect social skills with the non-Ocampa; eats like a human, except during her Elogium; everyone onboard instantly loves her. Her mysterious abilities emerged only as the plot demanded, usually as Deus Ex Machinas.

The few episodes where Kes was interesting were when they expored her bizarre alien biology, and showed the dangers of her powers. Oddly enough, the Kes-centric episodes did seem to be pretty good about this; but her appearance in everyone else's episodes totally failed to fit that. (As opposed to the other characters, whose flaws were pretty consistent.)

As a tween, I hated Kes for superficial reasons. As an adult, I just lament at the lost potential of a character with such a juicy backstory being written so blandly.

 

[Oddish]

1. I disagree with one prior sentiment: that Voyager failed. It did not. It struggled, but it was able to limp to the end of its 7-year run and end on its own terms. Though given the quality of the finale, that's arguably a pyrrhic victory.

2. I do agree that Kes had potential as a character, and have no real issue with her being wise beyond her years... look at the Jem'Hadar, who have speech and skillset coded into them genetically. If they can reach maturity in three days, the year or so that Ocampa require is no problem.

3. Remember the real problem... sloppy writing. If they couldn't ration out 38 torpedoes, stick a hollow pip on Harry's collar, or figure out that it takes two people to activate the autodestruct, how do you expect them to handle complex character development?

 

[Lynx]

What I'm offering is the perspective of (at least some) people that rejected the character and 'our' reasons for it, not an attempt at any kind of 'objective' evaluation of the character. If you didn't reject the character, then the reasons I listed obviously don't apply to you.

Secondly, as I read through your post, it seems that every point you had to make agrees with everything I said in the OP.

And so I'm not entirely sure about what, exactly, it is that you disagree with.

What I disagree with you most of all is that you have Kes as a scapegoat for what sloppy writers did to all the main characters, not only Kes.

No disagreement there. As stated in the OP and in a previous posts, rejecting the character had nothing to do with the likability of either the character or the actress. It had everything to do with the implausibility of the character. That was a hurdle that quite a few of us were just never able to get over.

Still it's the character you hang out for the mistakes the writers did.

Considering we are talking about a fictional character, I contend that it's absurd to say that's either 'right' or 'wrong' to accept or dismiss the character.

You don't exactly say anything in the rest of this post to explain 'how' it's totally wrong anyway.

And who is it insulting to? The writers? Maybe the writers need to be insulted. Maybe if they had been insulted more often while the series was still being made, they might have taken the message, got their act together and did a better job.

What is wrong is that you more and less blame Kes and only Kes for what was wrong with the series. The truth is that nothing got better when Kes was dumped, it got only worse. Adding a woman in latex amd making her the big star of the show might have attracted a lot of male teenage viewers but it didn't make the writing better.

Agreed but it's the fact that they didn't correct those flaws that was the problem.

Yes, but that was the writers who were to blame for that, not the character Kes.

From what I understand about biology, humans are primates. But I know what you mean. You mean lower primates, like monkeys and lemurs and the like.

Anyway, that's assuming that their brains work roughly similar to humans.

Another alternative is if their brains worked significantly different than humans. They experienced time differently and process sensory input different, etc. Or they were a genetically engineered race with built in knowledge. I would have accepted either explanation but neither was offered.

I'm a lot less concerned about that than I am in finding an answer for how they came to be in the first place. According to my knowledge and understanding of real world biology and what information we are given about the ST universe, there's no reason to think that such a creature as we are actually presented with in the series could evolve naturally. In fact, it flies in the face of everything we know about both real world and Trekian biology.

And so, just like you can offer up a solution to the 9 year life span problem just like that, I can also offer up an explanation for their existence just like that; genetically engineered slave race.

And I'm not even being original. I'm borrowing the idea from Blade Runner and hundreds of other sci-fi stories that also came before Voyager. Hell, they did it in DS9 with the Jem H'dar.

So, yeah, we're in the same boat here. We expect more from experienced writers. Especially people that are being paid to write.

And we had the Trill in DS9, the only species in that series which I did have a problem with due to that weird symbiot things. But I could live with that and I'm not attacking neither Jadzia or Ezri on the DS9 forum, blaming them for whatever mistakes there might have been in that series. In fact, I like both characters despite the weirdness of the Trill.

I find it hard to accept that genetically engineered slave race thing because the Ocampa had nothing common with the Jem Hadar. The Ocampa didn't act like genetically engineered slaves. If they were, kes would have stayed and lived her happy (?) life among the other slaves, not starting questioning their lifestyle and finally leave the planet.

But I must agree that the two of us actually have come up with more plausible solutions for the problems than the Voyager writers.

That works. Another answer is that there is a 'time dilation interference' (or whatever technobabble term you want to use) on the surface of the planet and so that time moves at ten times the rate as in the rest of the universe. Same answer and result in the end, just two different ways of getting there.

But yeah, the point is you and are two strangers just killing time brain storming and we're both coming up with better stuff than the crap they left us with.

Which I totally agree on. But what I disagree on is that you're blaming the messenger for the bad news, in fact you're attacking Kes while your post instead should be about the writers.

Just say they are an engineered slave race. All that makes perfect sense if they were an engineered slave race and their creators wanted to keep control over them and eliminate them if they couldn't.

But as a naturally occurring race, it's completely implausible. That right there is why many of us rejected the character. It's because we didn't buy it. The Ocampa didn't make since in either the real world or the ST universe as we understood it. They were entirely too obviously and blatantly the invention of lazy writers that either didn't know what they were doing or didn't care.

Without the age 2 and 9 year lifespan crap right from the start, I would have just accepted the character at face value without any problem at all. Just another ST alien. No problem.

But they throw in the age and life span and instead of just accepting the character at face value, I'm wondering what the hell that thing is supposed to be. What the hell am I supposed to do with the information that it's only two years old? This doesn't match any of my experiences or understanding of reality or other people or how they understanding the world around them.

Without some kind of explanation for how it came to be and/or how it's brain works, I have no way of relating to or understanding this thing.

But on screen, she's presented as a young woman in her early twenties. The conflict between what we are being told and what we are seeing is so jarring that it takes us out of the story and draws our attention to the writing, the casting, etc. Things that the story itself is not supposed to be drawing your attention to.

The Ocampa are the ST character equivalent to 'It was a dark and stormy night.

Once again I have to give you some points. Which only make me more angry when it comes to the writers because they could have skipped all the crap and used the good things which the character had.

However, I think that you're overestimating the importance of Kes and the Ocampa here. Kes wasn't the main character and was never meant to be and the Ocampa never had the importance of, let's say Vulcans, Klingons or Romulans in the series. They were hovering in the background now and then while the viewers were focused on other species. I guess that what made it so easy to simply sort out and skip the crap which the writers had ruined the species with when I watched an episode and instead focus on the good of the character.

The writers must actually had realized that some things were over the top because as time and episodes went by, there were less and less of the lifespan problem and all that. It was only used as some leftover in episodes like Before And After when they had to use it for the background story and nothing more than that. It's one of the reasons why I'm pretty sure that if Kes had stayed, her lifespan would have been prolonged. Just a pity that they didn't do that already in season 2 or earlier.

The Ocampa broke the rules in that they didn't conform to any established standard in the ST universe. Introducing something new and known is cool but in doing so, they need to establish a frame of reference for how this fits in with the ST universe as we already understand it.

That's not the only way that ST: Voyager or any of the other series broke the rules. However, most of the time, the rule breaking happens off screen. For example, hitting the reset button to restore all expanded resources and repair all ship damage every episode.

This kind of rule breaking is allowed to a much greater degree because when you have a week between episodes, it takes a lot longer to notice and there's nothing to stop you from filling in the blanks yourself. If they don't say 'it' didn't happen, then it could have, right?

The crime of the Ocampa is they did on screen and blatantly so and included one of them in the regular cast. If they'd only shown up for a single episode, we would have written it off as a stupid episode and they would've never been seen again. But they including one of them in the regular cast. And so week after week, we are confronted with a creature that doesn't fit our understanding of either real or the fictional ST universe.

And so, again, it draws attention away from the story in which they are present and toward the people writing the story. When this happens, it's because the audience has lost trust in the story teller. To keep the audience and once again engage them in the story, the story teller has to reestablish trust. In the case of the Ocampa, that never happened.

No, the Ocampa as such didn't break the rules. The writers did! You're referring to the reset button which was even more rule-breaking even if most of that took place off-screen. Just look at Deadlock when the ship is so damaged that it would take months to repair it, if that ever was possible. Still, we have the same ship in the next episode which is set to take place only weeks after Deadlock, as if the whole ship was replicated from scratch.

So the "crime of the Ocampa" is actually a crime of the writers.

You are right. Most of the the mistakes and the ways they cheated had nothing whatsoever to do with Kes and would have and did go on with and/or without her presence in the story.

The same is true for all the ST series. And many other series across all genres.

We just usually don't notice it immediately but only over time and only on repeated viewings if the series is otherwise good.

The Ocampa, and Kes specifically, drew attention away from the story and toward the story tellers on a consistent basis. And once we were looking at the story tellers, we started to notice all the other ways that the story tellers were being sloppy and cheating.

IOW, Kes was a consistent reminder that the story tellers were being lazy and sloppy.

I'm always right!
Ah, never mind!

Once again you have some points. But I must also once again state that Kes wasn't a consistent reminder that the story tellers were being lazy and sloppy since the whole Ocampa concept were shoved in the background most of the time. There were other things which showed their sloppiness more often.

It's setting her age at two that makes the whole thing so messed up. You're not really treating her like a two year old. Instead you're treating her like a woman that's the same age as the actress.

I think you rejected the character also. You just dealt with it differently. What you appear to have done is substitute your own character in for the one that was actually presented in the series.

I must say that the fascination with numbers that so many people have is somewhat disturbing. many who criticizes the Kes-Neelix relationship are complaining about "Neelix dating a two year old".

He wasn't! He was dating someome between 17 and 20 years old.

That said, I must add that I do find the nine-year lifespan disturbing and downright idiotic in many aspects. My theory of a 10-year orbit for the planet would have been a better solution to that problem.

To be honest, I'm not rejecting the character, instead I have made attempts to improve the character! Most of the characteristics and the good aspects of her are still there in my explanations and stories.

As for that, you should really need a visit to The Kes Website. Consider yourself cordially invited!
And I strongly recommend a visit to the Voyager mysteries-and how to solve them page which can be found on that site.

http://www.lynx677.tk/

because the production was giving up on the character. According to Ethan Phillips, a proper breakup scene was written for Neelix and Kes but it was never used in the series. I think he said that they shot it but it was left on the editing floor to cut time. I'm not sure when the decision was made to axe Kes from the cast but by midway through season three, it was definitely headed in that direction.

I'm not entirely sure of that. There are rumors about Kim being the one selected for axing but that the mentioning of him (or more correctly the actor Garrett Wang) in a glossy magazine about "the 50 most handsome" made them change their minds and axe Kes instead. Obviously Lien didn't even know about it before being told that she wasn't welcome anymore.

And if they really wanted to axe Kes in season 3, they could at least have let the lieave with that Zahir in Darkling instead of coming up with that energy-being mumbo-jumbo in The Gift.

I never said that everything wrong with Voyager came back to Kes. I did say that Kes personified everything wrong with Voyager but by that, I mean that everything they did wrong with Voyager, they also did with Kes specifically and she was an on screen reminder of everything the production was doing wrong with the series.

I agree. The DS9 team had a much better grasp of what they were doing.

And It wasn't Kes and Kes alone and I never said it was. Again, it was a matter of she was on screen reminder of just how sloppy the writers were being.

Unfortunately, your OP points out Kes as the one and only big problem with the show, thus omitting all the other evidence of sloppy writing from the writers.

You're definitely in a minority and the ratings of the show reflect that. But I'm sure if that even counts if you didn't watch the rest of the series.

i'm not so sure about that. What I can see, the ratings tells a different story.

Besides that, I don't care if I'm in a minority here as long as I feel that I'm doing the right thing.

I'm curious as to what it episode it was. I lost interest when Tom Paris went to warp 10 and mutated into a salamander. The whole episode was laughably bad and, if it wasn't before, it was perfectly clear from that episode on that the writers had no idea at all what they were doing. When I went back and watched the entire series in order, I skipped that episode.

That was so stupid that I'm laughing out loud right now just thinking about it.

It was a horrible episode near the end of season 6 in which kes was brought back-only to be totally destroyed and humiliated. That episode was a finger up the faces of everyone who like the character and it made me definitely stop watching the series. After that, Iv'e only watched seasons 1-3 on DVD.

As for Threshold I agree with you. It was horrible.
However, If you watch the episode and imagine that what you watch is actually a nightmare Tom Paris had after eating too much of Neelix's food,then the whole episode is actually funny.

Well, I never said that Kes was the only problem with the show. Again, it's more a matter of she was onscreen reminder of just how lazy and sloppy the writers were being.

The problem is that you point out Kes as the main problem with the show and the writing, which I think is wrong. Seen from a juridical position, Kes was a victim in this case and not the only victim caused by the actions of a writing staff who, to quote your own comment "had no idea at all of what they were doing".

And I must ask you: Did the series become any better when Kes was out?

 

[Lynx]

But if the showrunners did that than she would be like everybody else; the limited lifespan was interesting if the series was open to explore it. She was the first Star Trek recurring alien where the species didn't live over a century of more; I would've handled it, if I was writing the series, where Kes was oblivious of her limited life and the Doctor discovered it and didn't disclosed it with her. I enjoyed the expansion of her character and her superpowers, a part of me wondered if Kes could actually manipulate warp probabilities, alter time or make it stagnant? Anyway, I wasn't sure her lifespan had to be literal, could she or her beings, the Ocampa, may have a limited life in the fabrics of reality but transcends their existence within space time.

Yes, maybe she would "be like everybody else".
But so what?

As I wrote in my recent reply to the JeremyLH, the whole Star Trek is full of species who are like everybody else. Most of them are basically humans with a ridged nose or ridged forehead.

What I would like to focus on when it comes to Kes is her personality.

She is bright, witty, curious, smart, eager to learn and explore and have a way to solve problems by moving around them and attacking them from another angle which are abilities which could be better used in storytelling than a limited lifespan which only leads up to death and destruction.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Depends on the kind of series. In a serious series like ST that's presented as 'really happening,' they aren't supposed to draw your attention to the fact that what you are watching is completely fictional. It destroys the illusion of reality and shatters the suspension of disbelief.

Only in your mind, perhaps. It is certainly not a rule of "serious" TV, and many, many works of fiction telegraph potential endings, sometimes even in a title.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Unfortunately, your OP points out Kes as the one and only big problem with the show, thus omitting all the other evidence of sloppy writing from the writers.



i'm not so sure about that. What I can see, the ratings tells a different story.

Besides that, I don't care if I'm in a minority here as long as I feel that I'm doing the right thing.

Hmm, did 7 of 9 really made the remaining portion of the series better??? Looks like a sliding scale of decline from episode to episode.

Yes, maybe she would "be like everybody else".
But so what?

As I wrote in my recent reply to the JeremyLH, the whole Star Trek is full of species who are like everybody else. Most of them are basically humans with a ridged nose or ridged forehead.

What I would like to focus on when it comes to Kes is her personality.

She is bright, witty, curious, smart, eager to learn and explore and have a way to solve problems by moving around them and attacking them from another angle which are abilities which could be better used in storytelling than a limited lifespan which only leads up to death and destruction.

The limited lifespan is the character, like Odo being a shapeshifter, and Spock's struggle with emotions; it's part of the nucleus of the character. The elements you mentioned about Kes would make whatever happened to her have more meaning if the showrunners continued to invest in her character. I think this element was the reason why Jennifer Lien worked so hard to earn the role, her story should've been the exploration of life - good or bad and bring forth how incredible and how important it is to live life at its fullest.

Take that away then who cares, besides you, about this character??? She would be just a generic character who's pretty and was well mannered. I don't think that's enough to constitute an investment in the character; despite how terrible VOY was the series should produce some form of drama, and conflict within Kes. Kes needed some internal conflict, if not the one she inherited, then what would that conflict be??? The struggle to be bright, witty, smart, eager to learn and explore and have a way to solve problems? That's not an effective way to gain interest in such a promising character IMO.

 

[Lynx]

Hmm, did 7 of 9 really made the remaining portion of the series better??? Looks like a sliding scale of decline from episode to episode.



The limited lifespan is the character, like Odo being a shapeshifter, and Spock's struggle with emotions; it's part of the nucleus of the character. The elements you mentioned about Kes would make whatever happened to her have more meaning if the showrunners continued to invest in her character. I think this element was the reason why Jennifer Lien worked so hard to earn the role, her story should've been the exploration of life - good or bad and bring forth how incredible and how important it is to live life at its fullest.

Take that away then who cares, besides you, about this character??? She would be just a generic character who's pretty and was well mannered. I don't think that's enough to constitute an investment in the character; despite how terrible VOY was the series should produce some form of drama, and conflict within Kes. Kes needed some internal conflict, if not the one she inherited, then what would that conflict be??? The struggle to be bright, witty, smart, eager to learn and explore and have a way to solve problems? That's not an effective way to gain interest in such a promising character IMO.

The difference is that the concepts with Odo as a shapeshifter and Spock as a Vulcan who struggles with emotions is that those concepts worked. The nine-year lifespan didn't.

First of all, a being with such a lifespan would never develope into more than a primate. Second, I see nothing which makes such a character interesting in the same way Odo and Spock are interesting. The only thing such a character has is "oh, i'm gonna be dead in nine years" which might be great for one of those syrupy soap operas where people slowly dies in a long run of episodes and people cries in front of the TV but not for a series which is supposed to be about spece adventures and space exploring.

As for caring about characters, it all depends of how interesting the character is. I mean, characters like Garak, Quark, Odo and some of the DS9 favorites we have discussed on the DS9 forum don't need a lifespan to be interesting. No one cares about how old Quark is as long as the character itself is interesting. As for Kes, she had a lot of abilities without the lifespan which could have made her character even more interesting-with better writers.

 

[Oddish]

Long as we're discussing the Trill, let's take a hard look at age differences there. Jake mentions that Ezri is cute, and Ben says she's "about 300 years too old for you". Which made her about 290 years too old for Worf or Julian. But that didn't stop those relationships. In Trek, people age at different speeds, and it's understood. Whatever her age, Kes was an intelligent, rational adult; albeit one with limited life experiences. If I believe that linguistic abilities can be coded genetically, that planets can have time run super fast, and that a transporter can split you or fuse you or turn you into a preteen, I can buy the Ocampa.

However, If you watch the episode and imagine that what you watch is actually a nightmare Tom Paris had after eating too much of Neelix's food, then the whole episode is actually funny.

And that is exactly what I do. It was his Leola root casserole, to be precise.

There are rumors about Kim being the one selected for axing but that the mentioning of him (or more correctly the actor Garrett Wang) in a glossy magazine about "the 50 most handsome" made them change their minds and axe Kes instead.

True or no, I think that the decision was made by the time "Before and After" was done. It seemed to me like they had decided that Kes would not be taking the rest of her journey with them, so they opted to condense it into one episode. Too bad B&A was, in many ways, better than the timeline we got (the Doc had a name, Harry was a lieutenant, and the year of hell was a year of hell).

 

[STEPhon IT]

The difference is that the concepts with Odo as a shapeshifter and Spock as a Vulcan who struggles with emotions is that those concepts worked. The nine-year lifespan didn't.

First of all, a being with such a lifespan would never develope into more than a primate. Second, I see nothing which makes such a character interesting in the same way Odo and Spock are interesting. The only thing such a character has is "oh, i'm gonna be dead in nine years" which might be great for one of those syrupy soap operas where people slowly dies in a long run of episodes and people cries in front of the TV but not for a series which is supposed to be about spece adventures and space exploring.

As for caring about characters, it all depends of how interesting the character is. I mean, characters like Garak, Quark, Odo and some of the DS9 favorites we have discussed on the DS9 forum don't need a lifespan to be interesting. No one cares about how old Quark is as long as the character itself is interesting. As for Kes, she had a lot of abilities without the lifespan which could have made her character even more interesting-with better writers.

Living life at its fullest should've been the prime essence of the character for me and any further development should be an extension to her character. What your missing about the intrigue of Spock, Garak, and Odo was the struggle, each of these characters had an internal struggle about themselves which made them interesting. Kes would just be a walking, talking Barbie doll without it, her struggle is something which is internal to every human being on Earth. It should've been explored despite how much you loathed it, I thought her character could've related to people who struggle with immortality and terminal diseases.

Her character and her struggle, as much as you disliked it, had something to encounter if the showrunner was willing to go there. There's tons of short life expectancies in the lore of Star Trek and dealing with the rigors of a space adventure series comes with the territory, just observe a random crewmember getting killed off in every episode from every series of Star Trek, but with Kes it was something an audience member couldn't and shouldn't just brush off because she's a beautiful woman who's sweet and kind and witty and could solve mysteries. How about Kes trying to solve the biggest mystery? Herself. To me, it was a fascinating concept which I thought the series had a canvas to explore.

 

[Dukhat]

I will repeat that VOY failed (by whatever measurements you use to determine if you think the show failed or succeeded) because the show's premise was faulty. Most of the characters in the show were just fine. The worst was probably Chakotay, which was ironic because I thought he was the best character in season 1 but the writers had no idea what to do with him, so he was relegated to cardboard status. If this cast had been the crew of, say, the Enterprise-D in TNG, the show would have been fine because of the episodic nature of the series. There wouldn't have been any issues about not having enough power, or shuttles, or torpedoes, or needing to fix the ship after it was attacked for the umpteenth time, because the Federation and Starfleet would have provided all that. And there certainly wouldn't have been some silly 'need to get back to Earth' trope involved, because they wouldn't have been lost in the first place. But unfortunately a good cast and crew were plagued with a show having a dumb premise and unrealistic stories and situations.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The series premise was faulty or was it the execution of it? I still believe it is a premise Star Trek writers should explore... some day.

 

[Oddish]

will repeat that VOY failed (by whatever measurements you use to determine if you think the show failed or succeeded) because the show's premise was faulty.

It was arguably faulty for the kind of show they wanted to do. The reset button hurt it.

The worst was probably Chakotay, which was ironic because I thought he was the best character in season 1 but the writers had no idea what to do with him, so he was relegated to cardboard status.

Kim and Kes were not far behind.

this cast had been the crew of, say, the Enterprise-D in TNG, the show would have been fine because of the episodic nature of the series.

That's what some people say they were doing: TNG, Seasons 8-14.

The series premise was faulty or was it the execution of it?

The execution. Can you imagine combining the serialization of the Xindi arc with the Voyager cast? Maybe even have Chakotay start out as captain, then die, and Janeway takes command. Because no one is safe, episodes where a character is in harm's way get a lot scarier.

 

[Dukhat]

The series premise was faulty or was it the execution of it?

That's a very good question. Normally I would say that 'the premise was good but the execution of it was poor,' like you stated. However...

Let's compare VOY with another show that at the base levels, the premise was the same: Gilligan's Island. Seven people stranded on an island, dealing with what they find on the island while at the same time trying to figure out ways to escape (which inevitably get foiled by Gilligan), is essentially the same premise as a starship lost in the Delta Quadrant, dealing with what they encounter there while at the same time trying to find a way back to Earth (which inevitably gets foiled by whatever maguffin the writers come up with for that episode.) The difference is that one show was a comedy that didn't take itself at all seriously, while the other was a serious dramatic science fiction show whose audience were intelligent, science-oriented people (for the most part).

The other issue is that the audience for Gilligan's Island knew those castaways were never going to get home, no matter what new invention or means of escape came their way. It was all part of the fun of the show. But unless your show is a comedy like Gilligan's Island, then you simply can't have a serious dramatic show based on the premise of 'will they get home this time?' Because we all know they won't. And because we already know that the show is going to last seven years, then any dramatic tension about 'will the crew survive being attacked by this week's aliens' goes right out the window. We know they will survive. What we didn't know, though, was that each week everything would be set back to the status quo, whether the ship was blown to hell, they lost 15 torpedoes and 3 shuttles that day, or decide to just do a jaunt in the holodeck because they seem to just have unlimited power and resources for a ship all alone with no support stations to help them. And that is why the show failed.

 

[Oddish]

And that is why the show failed.

I don't consider it to have failed. Aged poorly, yes. DS9 has come into it's own over the years, and Voyager shown its cracks. But despite its poor writing, it was able to go out on it's own terms. As opposed to its successor, which had its plug pulled.

 

[fireproof78]

Good grief, all the OP did was say that Kes was evidence of, a reminder of, sloppy writing, not the whole reason why Voyager failed/was poorly regarded/missed opportunities.

Welcome to TrekBBS, @JeremyLH . I appreciated your post, even if I didn't agree with all of it. I think the biggest thing with Kes, and the back and forth discussion generated here, is the simple fact that that it was missed potential, which the writers of Voyager often times are guilty of.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't consider it to have failed. Aged poorly, yes. DS9 has come into it's own over the years, and Voyager shown its cracks. But despite its poor writing, it was able to go out on it's own terms. As opposed to its successor, which had its plug pulled.

It failed in my mind because it got to the point where my threshold for suspension of disbelief was surpassed. The show became just silly and boring at the same time. The show just became episodic nonsense that could be shown in pretty much any order and nothing significant would have changed other than there were some episodes with Kes in them and some with 7 of 9.

Now, that was UPN's nature with the show (and to another extent, ENT). They wanted no drama, no conflict, and no overarching story arcs like DS9 or Babylon 5. They wanted a simple show about a ship traveling in space and aliens-of-the-week. Which they show's original premise couldn't live up to.

Now does that mean that I would rather have had VOY be like nuBSG? No. But as I've stated before, I would have liked the premise of the show to have changed. Instead of wandering aimlessly through space with no real goal other than to get back to Earth (which, again, we know will not happen until the last episode), I would have liked for the crew to ultimately have accepted their fate that they will never be returning home, and instead root to a section of space where they will make their new home. They would instead try to form their own -pseudo-Federation with the local alien races, and teach them the Federation's values and technology. Almost a 'birth of the Federation' situation, only in the Delta Quadrant.

Good grief, all the OP did was say that Kes was evidence of, a reminder of, sloppy writing, not the whole reason why Voyager failed/was poorly regarded/missed opportunities.

But Kes wasn't any such thing. The fact that she had a lifespan of 9 years and was a fully grown humanoid woman at 2 years old wasn't the inherent problem with either the character or the show. It's a silly concept to be sure, but it wasn't evidence of how the show 'failed.' If Kes had been a main character on TNG, the OP wouldn't even be having this discussion. IMHO, he makes a lot of good points but he's ultimately just trying to make a connection where there really isn't one.

 

[STEPhon IT]

That's a very good question. Normally I would say that 'the premise was good but the execution of it was poor,' like you stated. However...

Let's compare VOY with another show that at the base levels, the premise was the same: Gilligan's Island. Seven people stranded on an island, dealing with what they find on the island while at the same time trying to figure out ways to escape (which inevitably get foiled by Gilligan), is essentially the same premise as a starship lost in the Delta Quadrant, dealing with what they encounter there while at the same time trying to find a way back to Earth (which inevitably gets foiled by whatever maguffin the writers come up with for that episode.) The difference is that one show was a comedy that didn't take itself at all seriously, while the other was a serious dramatic science fiction show whose audience were intelligent, science-oriented people (for the most part).

The other issue is that the audience for Gilligan's Island knew those castaways were never going to get home, no matter what new invention or means of escape came their way. It was all part of the fun of the show. But unless your show is a comedy like Gilligan's Island, then you simply can't have a serious dramatic show based on the premise of 'will they get home this time?' Because we all know they won't. And because we already know that the show is going to last seven years, then any dramatic tension about 'will the crew survive being attacked by this week's aliens' goes right out the window. We know they will survive. What we didn't know, though, was that each week everything would be set back to the status quo, whether the ship was blown to hell, they lost 15 torpedoes and 3 shuttles that day, or decide to just do a jaunt in the holodeck because they seem to just have unlimited power and resources for a ship all alone with no support stations to help them. And that is why the show failed.

That is what it was as a series but the premise presented something I misunderstood. I was expecting a series where, like DS9, would have a herculean effort of keeping the crew from being at each others throats. I wouldn't want to see an internal civil war between the confines of Voyager but I wouldn't have minded a bottled episode of how things could've gone wrong? TBH, too many Trek fans are thirsty for war and over bloated ship battles which has damaged the Star Trek concept where it's hard to recognize.

I was hoping to see the fear or concern where its possible well mannered crew members could actually walk the fine line of reaching the brink. Something I thought DS9 first 3 seasons did very well, testing a persons beliefs and hopefully figure out ways to NOT act on doing something which could hurt their principles and their character. I love the notion that being good is just as difficult as being bad. Dukhat, do you remember the climax of "The Dark Knight" where the Joker had two sets of people on 2 ferry boats? 1. were regular, everyday citizens struggling to cope with a chaos event which they have no control over. 2. a bunch of prison inmates who have done some horrible things. Each vessel was rigged with a bomb and the passengers have the trigger to the explosive. They have till midnight to make the decision to ignite this weapon and kill the other.

It is a trepidation which I find fascinating because it forces the characters to make decisions they've never thought of doing and thinking of the greater good before and after to have a solution. I was hoping VOY would have these kinds of moments which tests the boundaries of each crewmember, especially GOAT Janeway, and the exploration of existence. I believe that story still should be told where "a crew" who was lost had an identity and whether they returned or not, by the end of the series they would be different people. This doesn't mean having the Voyager in shambles and being all out bad people or some garbage "Year of Hell" crap but have an introspective which would contrast who the crew once were? I was expecting the Voyager crew to have or developed their own sub-culture, to invite the question, "Are we are what we are because of the costumes we wear the oath we share or the situation?" and "What is home?"

 

[STEPhon IT]

But Kes wasn't any such thing. The fact that she had a lifespan of 9 years and was a fully grown humanoid woman at 2 years old wasn't the inherent problem with either the character or the show. It's a silly concept to be sure, but it wasn't evidence of how the show 'failed.' If Kes had been a main character on TNG, the OP wouldn't even be having this discussion. IMHO, he makes a lot of good points but he's ultimately just trying to make a connection where there really isn't one.

There's nothing silly about the concept at all, this was and could've been a SF avenue of addressing terminal illness.

 

[fireproof78]

But Kes wasn't any such thing. The fact that she had a lifespan of 9 years and was a fully grown humanoid woman at 2 years old wasn't the inherent problem with either the character or the show. It's a silly concept to be sure, but it wasn't evidence of how the show 'failed.' If Kes had been a main character on TNG, the OP wouldn't even be having this discussion. IMHO, he makes a lot of good points but he's ultimately just trying to make a connection where there really isn't one.

I disagree to a certain degree. I think it was a huge problem for the character because she never came across as unique because of that limitation. It could have been a very interesting perspective, where she gets to age, and take a much different point of view that most characters on this journey, that ultimately she might not live to see completed. And, there are times where Kes does show that different point of view, especially in relationship to how people treat the Doctor. But, by and large, what makes her unique is really just there as a "Oh, you're an alien and only live 9 years. Oh, well, moving on." It's emblematic of VOY as a whole of "Oh, isn't that interesting. Oh, well, moving on."

The OP can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think she is why-I think she is an example of the poor writing the writers often utilized to keep the show, as you note, extremely episodic, with little consequence.