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The rank of "Doctor"

Dunno. What's there to "commanding a ship"? It sounds like a trivial thing compared with being a doctor or an engineer - possibly so trivial that doing it in addition to the main job wouldn't be too demanding, either.

Wow.

Really?

I don't really know what I could say that would correct such a gross misconception.

Well, try me. How is commanding a ship not a significantly easier job (i.e. one requiring lesser training except perhaps for silly reasons of prestige) than making said ship move or keeping said ship's crew healthy? Or cooking for said crew, for that matter?

I mean, noblemen could do it in the bygone days, for chrissakes!

Timo Saloniemi
 
Which is why Crusher would have Lieutenant Barnaby. Or why Picard would have Riker...

I'm not talking about making an academician do the job of a ship's actual operator, the guy who tells which sails to unfurl or which revolutions and rudder angles to choose. I'm talking more about the guy or gal who says "Our orders are to take out the Cardassian task force, and now I want those two lead ships targeted, but keep alert for flanking attempts".

Our Starfleet COs often tend to sit somewhere in the middle, micromanaging things COs oughtn't dabble in. But they needn't do that when their bridge crews or even their automated ships could handle such details with ease.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Which is why Crusher would have Lieutenant Barnaby. Or why Picard would have Riker...

Riker, of course, being a full Line Officer (with all the attendant training and experience in the related duties) would be a logical choice in lieu of Picard in any case.

I'm not talking about making an academician do the job of a ship's actual operator, the guy who tells which sails to unfurl or which revolutions and rudder angles to choose.
But the ship's commander has to understand those things and their ramifications before he can lawfully issue orders that impact or affect them.

See Star Trek: The Motion Picture for an example of what happens when the Commanding Officer doesn't understand the ship's systems well enough to issue effective orders, specifically Kirk ordering phasers against the wormhole asteroid.

You may be tempted to say, "but Kirk had Decker there to correct him", to which my reply would be, "if it becomes a pattern, then why not just keep Decker in charge?"

I'm talking more about the guy or gal who says "Our orders are to take out the Cardassian task force, and now I want those two lead ships targeted, but keep alert for flanking attempts".
What makes you think that a Ship's Doctor would have sufficient training to effectively make that sort of tactical decision?

Remember, the sorts of officers that are likely to give such an order have already drilled and drilled and drilled and studied and practiced and drilled some more, while the Senior Medical Officer was busy getting ready for casualties.

Our Starfleet COs often tend to sit somewhere in the middle, micromanaging things COs oughtn't dabble in. But they needn't do that when their bridge crews or even their automated ships could handle such details with ease.

Timo Saloniemi
I guess I don't really have anything to say about that. I don't think it helps or hinders either argument we're making.
 
Noblemen had the rank in name only, they always had a professional career sailor to actually do the job as shipmaster.

Isn't that the origin of the naval rank of Commander?

Meaning, the career sailor you spoke of was the one actually commanding the ship, hence the name of the rank. It eventually mutated into the one we know today. Right?
 
As noted above, certain officers who have the right training, like Beverly, can take command.

Obviously, McCoy didn't. The only times we saw him give orders were mainly of the medical variety, like when he orders Kirk to take a physical or is filling ot a report on the captain's fitness to command. The only non-medical order we see him give is when Spock surrenders to him on the bridge in The Menagerie, Pt. I. The security officers arrive to take Spock away and McCoy asks if confinement to quarters is suitable. After Spock agrees, he says, irascibly, "Well, confine him!"

As for Bashir, we know he's been trained as a helm officer, because in The Search, Pt. I, he takes over the helm of the Defiant and performs ably.
 
^ AFAIK, in the Borg live-action computer game, there's a Starfleet ship whose first officer is the ship's counselor.
 
How does the chief medical officer have time to take bridge command training AND perform his or her required duties?
 
Dunno. What's there to "commanding a ship"? It sounds like a trivial thing compared with being a doctor or an engineer - possibly so trivial that doing it in addition to the main job wouldn't be too demanding, either.

Wow.

Really?

I don't really know what I could say that would correct such a gross misconception.

Well, try me. How is commanding a ship not a significantly easier job (i.e. one requiring lesser training except perhaps for silly reasons of prestige) than making said ship move or keeping said ship's crew healthy? Or cooking for said crew, for that matter?

I sense a strong devil's advocacy here, but it's to the point of being silly. If you really think managing and coordinating the different and highly techincal departments of a ship, plus the knowledge and experience to make complex and highly consequential tactical and diplomatic decisions is "significantly easier" than those other examples, then I don't know if any further discussion would be worthwhile. Do you honestly think that captains of modern warships have advanced degrees and around 20 years of experience just for prestige?

I mean, noblemen could do it in the bygone days, for chrissakes!

You may have noticed that the notion of hereditary or social-class-based leadership has been thoroughly discredited. Noblemen in command of ships was particularly ineffective, and the need for systematic technical training for "military" officers developed in navies well before land forces.

Which is why Crusher would have Lieutenant Barnaby. Or why Picard would have Riker...

So the captain would just be a figurehead and let the professionals run their departments independently? Wouldn't there have to be some top-level coordination? Who would have final responsibility? If it's the figurehead captain, how would he know how to weigh the requirements of the various officers? How would he know if they were bad at their jobs?

Isn't that the origin of the naval rank of Commander?

Meaning, the career sailor you spoke of was the one actually commanding the ship, hence the name of the rank. It eventually mutated into the one we know today. Right?

Not really. The "captain" was the military commander, the "master" was the professional mariner with merchant sailing experience who handled the technical side of things (master is still the official title for the captain of a merchant vessel). By the 1700s it was realized that all captains were not alike, that small ship captains should have a different title than those of large vessels. The smallest naval vessels, sloops, were not big enough to warrant a master as well as a captain, so their commanding officer had to fill both roles. Thus, "master and commander," which became the Royal Navy rank for the captain of a sloop. In the 1790s it was shortened to just "commander." The US Navy had the same thing and called it "master commandant," but waited till the 1830s to officially simplify it to "commander."

--Justin
 
How does the chief medical officer have time to take bridge command training AND perform his or her required duties?

Well, how does the chief engineer? Or the chief science officer? Why are we singling out the CMO? Spock was the ship's first officer and Dax even captained the Defiant at one point. A suitably trained doctor being able to take charge of a bridge watch seems OK in that light.
 
How does the chief medical officer have time to take bridge command training AND perform his or her required duties?

See my prior posting re: astronaut Story Musgrave.

NASA is full of super-achievers with multiple graduate degrees in medicine, engineering, sciences... in addition to military careers and pilot training and everything else you can think of.
 
Well, how does the chief engineer? Or the chief science officer? Why are we singling out the CMO? Spock was the ship's first officer and Dax even captained the Defiant at one point. A suitably trained doctor being able to take charge of a bridge watch seems OK in that light.


The Sciences are an area of defined specialization that only they are able to perform in their field which also should take up the majority of their duties, particularly medical.

Command and Operations officers would have enough knowledge of engineering and how systems work and specifications and stuff that pertain to a station or starship.

As for Spock his official role was First Officer going in which mean he would have had to be fully prepared for that role.

It would seem that in the taking command hierarchy the Command and Operations officers take priority in that role even down to a Lieutenant Junior Grade who would take precedent over the Science officers of Lieutenant or even Lieutenant Commander rank.

Dax was also a senior officer as well.
 
There's some indication that Sisko might have started off as an engineer and Janeway a sciences officer and then both moved to command afterwards...
 
There's some indication that Sisko might have started off as an engineer and Janeway a sciences officer and then both moved to command afterwards...

Indication? It's actually stated that Sisko was an engineer in the Homefront/Paradise Lost story, and Janeway's background as a science officer is mentioned quite often.
 
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