The rank of "Doctor"

[Chaos Descending]

I agree with you 100%, Forbin.

Add in the fact that the trend is always towards more specialization, not less, due to the increased knowledge requirements from technology advances. I can't see how a ship's doctor could possibly be expected to be concerned with the workings of commanding a ship and still retain his duties as a doctor.

 

[Timo]

Dunno. What's there to "commanding a ship"? It sounds like a trivial thing compared with being a doctor or an engineer - possibly so trivial that doing it in addition to the main job wouldn't be too demanding, either.

Sure, there's a lot of administrative work involved. But that wouldn't be an issue if one simply sat a doctor or an engineer in the center chair and said "get us through this fight with the Borg". It's not as if the skipper actually flies the ship or fires the guns or anything.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Chaos Descending]

Dunno. What's there to "commanding a ship"? It sounds like a trivial thing compared with being a doctor or an engineer - possibly so trivial that doing it in addition to the main job wouldn't be too demanding, either.

Wow.

Really?

I don't really know what I could say that would correct such a gross misconception.

EDIT: FYI, in the "real world", most "Chief Engineer" types will always go on to command a ship. I think most people don't get that.

 

[The Wormhole]

I think I read somewhere (may actually have been a post on this very forum) that the main reason why TNG put Dr. Crusher in command, and eventually Counselor Troi is because of growing criticism that there were no females in authority positions.

While I do realize how unrealistic it is to have medical officers in command of the ship, I do overlook it since the conventions of television frequently put main characters in unlikely circumstances simply to fulfill contractual obligations to give the actors something to do.

One thing I can't overlook however is DS9's Soldiers of the Empire, with Worf gone on the mission with Martok, Dr. Bashir has to fill in as the station's intelligence officer. Doctors and inteligence officers are two distinctly different jobs, with different career paths, interests, and goals. How can Dr. Bashir fill in for Worf any more than Worf could fill in for Dr. Bashir. This wasn't a case of giving Bashir something to do for the episode, since he only had two scenes in the episode, and aside from mentioning his temporary transfer, they weren't important. Those scenes could have just have been banter between him and O'Brien without any mention of who is doing Worf's job while he's gone. After all, they didn't mention who was covering Dax's job as science officer while she was also with Worf and Martok.

 

[SchwEnt]

Does anyone know about the possibility of cross-training? IRL and in ST?

I think of NASA, where there are astronauts who are MDs, yet also fully-qualified test pilots and engineers as well. Multi-disciplined, to say the least.

Perhaps someone could be a medical officer, a staff officer not qualified for any command assignment. And then later that person trains or tests or otherwise qualifies for command IN ADDITION to medical duties.

Not a question of whether a doctor is qualified to command. More like someone who IS trained and qualified to command as any line officer, over and above earlier medical degrees they also have.

Could also apply to other fields...
--an engineer who later pursues the command track.
--a scientist (who might be a staff officer not a line officer) who also later qualifies for command (Spock and Janeway).

Does this occur in present day military?
Would it be possible in Star Fleet?

 

[SchwEnt]

One thing I can't overlook however is DS9's Soldiers of the Empire, with Worf gone on the mission with Martok, Dr. Bashir has to fill in as the station's intelligence officer. Doctors and inteligence officers are two distinctly different jobs, with different career paths, interests, and goals. How can Dr. Bashir fill in for Worf any more than Worf could fill in for Dr. Bashir. This wasn't a case of giving Bashir something to do for the episode, since he only had two scenes in the episode, and aside from mentioning his temporary transfer, they weren't important. Those scenes could have just have been banter between him and O'Brien without any mention of who is doing Worf's job while he's gone. After all, they didn't mention who was covering Dax's job as science officer while she was also with Worf and Martok.

I agree. How could Bashir really do it? Only explanation I can muster is that I think Bashir was more Star Fleet than other CMOs we've seen.
McCoy and Crusher seemed to be doctors first and then also Star Fleet officers, too.
Bashir struck me as more equal parts doctor/Star Fleet officer. So perhaps he had more military training outside the medical field. Maybe he took more general electives at Star Fleet Academy than someone who was strictly pursuing a medical career. It's weak but it's all I got.

 

[mtblillie]

This may have already been answered, but Crusher had command and duties on the bridge because she completed a bridge officers course, as pointed out when Troi took the same course. If you will notice, Troi is also in the medical profession and rarely shown as an officer but most often in her medical role. Traditionaly, since medical personnel hold a special degree which applies to both civilian and military work, which has its own customs and courtecies, they are treated with the customs and courtesies of that field, however, they are still officers, and when appropriate, treated as such.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One thing I can't overlook however is DS9's Soldiers of the Empire, with Worf gone on the mission with Martok, Dr. Bashir has to fill in as the station's intelligence officer. Doctors and inteligence officers are two distinctly different jobs, with different career paths, interests, and goals. How can Dr. Bashir fill in for Worf any more than Worf could fill in for Dr. Bashir. This wasn't a case of giving Bashir something to do for the episode, since he only had two scenes in the episode, and aside from mentioning his temporary transfer, they weren't important. Those scenes could have just have been banter between him and O'Brien without any mention of who is doing Worf's job while he's gone. After all, they didn't mention who was covering Dax's job as science officer while she was also with Worf and Martok.

I agree. How could Bashir really do it?

Maybe his genetically enhanced intellect qualifies him to be an intel officer.

 

[SchwEnt]

^^^ Yes.
But I can't recall quickly if Bashir's intel duty came before or after we learned of his genetically enhanced intellect.

After the fact of his superior abilities, well, there's probably a whole lot Bashir could be doing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^^^ Yes.
But I can't recall quickly if Bashir's intel duty came before or after we learned of his genetically enhanced intellect.

After.

His enhancements were revealed in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" which was before "Soldiers of the Empire."

 

[AJBryant]

I agree with you 100%, Forbin.

Add in the fact that the trend is always towards more specialization, not less, due to the increased knowledge requirements from technology advances. I can't see how a ship's doctor could possibly be expected to be concerned with the workings of commanding a ship and still retain his duties as a doctor.

Exactly. Considering the number of years of special training needed for "professional" line officers (engineers, doctors, JAG, etc.), and the amount of specialized training in tactics and weapons platforms and so on that command-line officers would need, one would need DECADES of training to get it all.

 

[lstyer]

There is something to be said, however, that Starfleet isn't simply today's navy transplanted into the future.

Some, maybe even many, of the differences between Starfleet and U.S.-Navy-in-Space might be explained by the fact that Starfleet is an institution of a multi-species civilization.

It's not just a combination of the various and varied earth cultures, it's also the Vulcans, the Andorians, the Tellarites, and so on. The realities of TV budgets and concerns over a mass audience's ability to identify with the goings-on have certainly led to a very human-centric portrayal of Starfleet, but it is, certainly by TNG, which is mostly what we're discussing, the Federation Starfleet.

So maybe the reason Starfleet has some method for letting the doctor take command even though the U.S. Navy doesn't is something Starfleet picked up from the Andorians.

 

[neozeks]

Add in the fact that the trend is always towards more specialization, not less, due to the increased knowledge requirements from technology advances.

True. But the very nature of Starfleet's job, going to places where no one has gone before, where it's possible you'll be on your own, out of contact and reach of your home base for extended periods of time, must introduce a counter-trend towards cross-training.

And like you yourself said:

EDIT: FYI, in the "real world", most "Chief Engineer" types will always go on to command a ship. I think most people don't get that.

Now, granted, a chief engineer's job may be somewhat closer to commanding a ship than the CMO's, but it's also a highly technical and specialized field, is it not? It's not such a large stretch then to say that some doctors might be able to get some command training.

 

[Chaos Descending]

EDIT: FYI, in the "real world", most "Chief Engineer" types will always go on to command a ship. I think most people don't get that.

Now, granted, a chief engineer's job may be somewhat closer to commanding a ship than the CMO's, but it's also a highly technical and specialized field, is it not? It's not such a large stretch then to say that some doctors might be able to get some command training.

Well, the fact is that the Commanding Officer has to know a great deal about the Engineering systems of his ship, not so much about the medical systems of the human body.

Besides, unlike in Star Trek, a real Chief Engineer doesn't actually fix anything. His enlisted technicians do all the technical work. The Chief Engineer just has to know the "high level" function of the ship's systems. And so does the Captain!

 

[Forbin]

Add in the fact that the trend is always towards more specialization, not less, due to the increased knowledge requirements from technology advances.

True. But the very nature of Starfleet's job, going to places where no one has gone before, where it's possible you'll be on your own, out of contact and reach of your home base for extended periods of time, must introduce a counter-trend towards cross-training.

In that case, let's transpose the question back to a time when this was true here on earth - the 18th century British Navy Royal, which Roddenberry had in mind with TOS' "Hornblower in Space" concept:

If the captain of a British frigate halfway around the world from home dies, who takes over - the ship's surgeon?

 

[Chaos Descending]

Nope. There are LOTS of other officers on the ship that would take over well before that. In fact, I daresay that the Ship's Surgeon would take over pretty much only if he were the last man alive.

 

[SchwEnt]

I agree with you 100%, Forbin.

Add in the fact that the trend is always towards more specialization, not less, due to the increased knowledge requirements from technology advances. I can't see how a ship's doctor could possibly be expected to be concerned with the workings of commanding a ship and still retain his duties as a doctor.

Exactly. Considering the number of years of special training needed for "professional" line officers (engineers, doctors, JAG, etc.), and the amount of specialized training in tactics and weapons platforms and so on that command-line officers would need, one would need DECADES of training to get it all.

^^^Yes but there ARE professionals who do it all. Again I look to NASA's incredible astronauts, like Story Musgrave. He got a BS in mathematics, a MBA in computer programming, a BA in chemistry, got his MD, and a MS in physiology, and a MA in literature. Whew.

Oh yeah, he also served in the Marines.
He was an aircraft crew chief aboard the USS Wasp.
He has flown 17,700 hours in 160 different aircraft, which is about 10,000 more hours than a Top Gun pilot.
He also made 800 parachute freefalls.

And he had six children, too.

If all this isn't quite enough in one career, he also went on to be a NASA astronaut and went into space.
SIX times.

Soooo...
If the real life astronauts of today can be MDs and engineers and pilots and scientists all at the same time, I have no doubt Star Fleet officers can do the same and be fully qualified across multiple professional disciplines, if they so desire.

 

[Chaos Descending]

You mean if one real life Astronaut can do all that...

Besides, think of this, if there is a catastrophe on a ship that wipes out so many high ranking officers that it may come down to the Senior Med. Off. taking command, I think the Senior Med. Off. has worse problems on his hands than commanding the ship. You know, like taking care of the casualties!

 

[J.T.B.]

There is a difference between taking charge of a bridge watch, which would be similar to what the US Navy would call officer of the deck, and being in actual line of command. In the US Navy, an ensign or JG can be qualified as OOD underway on a destroyer but still be way down the list for succeeding to command. I would think it would be even easier in space. As long as a medical officer has a good enough grasp of the fundamentals to qualify on whatever tests are prescribed, what's the big deal in them taking charge of a few hours of uneventful travel through empty space? Troi taking over the watch from Data did not mean that she was suddenly bumping him from third-in-command. She was just taking over that particular watch.

An experienced physician suddenly becoming an officer in line of command, however, is a lot harder to swallow. It basically obviates the knowledge and experience that line officers gain between the grades of ensign and captain, making the professional attainments needed to command a vessel seem relatively easy to obtain in a short time. Which is contrary to what is said elsewhere about the rarity of the qualities needed in a starship captain (Stone in "Court Martial," Merik in "Bread and Circuses").

"Line officer" is a USN term but I use it because McCoy's comments to Scotty in "A Taste of Armageddon" indicate that it means much the same thing in Starfleet.

--Justin

 

[USS Excelsior]

And plus in The Menagerie, the Doctor can be the highest ranking officer to make an arrest and put Spock in the brig, despite Dr. McCoy not actually taking command of the ship from then on.