Q says that the Q were like humans once but developed their ability to manipulate time and space by evolving. The Prophets' status as existing outside of time means to me that they are unchanging. Not being able to grow and better themselves as the Q have is a disadvantage to them. Existing in linear space, the Q have evolved to become more powerful than the Prophets ever thought of being.
The Q or the Prophets?
- Thread starter Nightdiamond
- Start date
The Prophets do grow during DS9. At the start they are not interested at all in corporeal matters but at the end they're very interested. They've changed and I'd argue that having Sisko with them has made them change some more.
Perhaps they can change, but it is a slow process. The Q have already left them in the dust. Anyways, it seems kind of illogical to me that non-linear beings could ever change. That change would be a measurement of time passage and that should not exist for them.
it is not that the prophets are less powerful, it is simply that they need to express their power less
they knew that they were not truly endangered because they knew the outcome, because they live in all time.
not all events have been like this, the combat between sisko light and kira, imbued with costa mojen and a prophet was uncertain. because time is not linear.
the prophets know that corporeal beings have choices, and know that there are "decision nodes"
Q also knows this (All good things...)
Q has been at this for a MUCH shorter period of time than the prophets, and the prophets knew they needed something more to continue growing, the orbs, I will posit, were not only to give guidance to bajor, but, also to continue the growth of the prophets.
and I will further posit, that sisko is not only a means by which to protect bajor, the home of the prophets, and sisko, truly, but to grow further
they have great power, but they have had it long enough to no longer need to show it off, think of insurrection, a highly advanced culture who no longer need to fly about in starships, instead they choose a simple life. they have a capacity for manipulation of time, and are in a place that gives them more time to hone their personal abilities, and to grow as individuals.
I do not think the Q would win, because the prophets would have set a plan in place before the Q even began to escape from primordial ooze, which would come to fruition just in time to bring the Q enlightenment.
Quiet power is certainty in that power
they knew that they were not truly endangered because they knew the outcome, because they live in all time.
not all events have been like this, the combat between sisko light and kira, imbued with costa mojen and a prophet was uncertain. because time is not linear.
the prophets know that corporeal beings have choices, and know that there are "decision nodes"
Q also knows this (All good things...)
Q has been at this for a MUCH shorter period of time than the prophets, and the prophets knew they needed something more to continue growing, the orbs, I will posit, were not only to give guidance to bajor, but, also to continue the growth of the prophets.
and I will further posit, that sisko is not only a means by which to protect bajor, the home of the prophets, and sisko, truly, but to grow further
they have great power, but they have had it long enough to no longer need to show it off, think of insurrection, a highly advanced culture who no longer need to fly about in starships, instead they choose a simple life. they have a capacity for manipulation of time, and are in a place that gives them more time to hone their personal abilities, and to grow as individuals.
I do not think the Q would win, because the prophets would have set a plan in place before the Q even began to escape from primordial ooze, which would come to fruition just in time to bring the Q enlightenment.
Quiet power is certainty in that power
The Prophets are a contradiction. Until Sisko showed up they had no concept of linear time. But in order for there to be a Sisko they had to know linear time. He had to come around before the Pah-Wraiths tried to escape. They had to have the one Prophet who inhabited Sisko's mother be outside of the Wormhole so she could reopen it. All of this is linear time.
They knew it was the sisko who would teach them of linear time (hence sending out his mom to make sure he happened) it would be cheating and paradoxical to have "known" about it before he taught them.
it is a paradox. but it is a necessary paradox.the prophets COULD just skip to their ultimate development, because, they know what it is, there is nothing ACTUALLY stopping them from doing so.
but, it would be cheating, and what they are, who they are, doesn't do that.
as demonstrated by the sisko
and maybe part of getting that far requires a non-cheating attitude, a bak'u attitude, the Q took a different route, and the Organians, still another. but the Q are still relatively new at this, the prophets aren't.
if the Q actually posed a threat to them or bajor, they'd be stopped from posing a threat. if they did not, they would be ignored (well with sisko there it might be a SLIGHTLY more violent response, "picard never punched me"
If they knew Sisko would teach them linear time, then they know linear time. They either know what linear time is or they don't. They seemed confused by it, yet they planed ahead.
It's a contradiction, and in further thought, poor writing.
but in universe it is simply that they do understand a need to progress in a certain way, that there is an order to things.
There is one idea going around that the Prophets are actually the Bajorans themselves after millions of years of evolution - it explains why they said, "we are of Bajor".
That they evolved to a point where they existed outside of space/time, and lost their perception of linear time. Having lost their view of what is present, past or future, they send orbs to the Bajorans as if communicating with them from the present.
They are actually communicating with their past selves! - A paradox..
If the Prophets evolved to the state they are, then ...that means... they evolved...
The post about being stuck in one state is interesting; if they exist outside time, and do not change, they may just stay the same, eon after eon, though for them there is no time...
And the other possibility is that they've always existed- since they live outside of time, there is no beginning or end for them, since these are time frames.
That would mean that they are totally alien, beyond weird. Even the Q have a frame of reference for their beginning- they spoke of how a "new era" began for them;
And yet here is another contradiction:
Ok, so from this dialogue, somehow the Q came to the point where they got their powers. Yet they've always existed.
The Prophets exist outside of time, yet they claim to be of Bajor. And there are " bad Prophets" which seem to have very "coporeal" motives, (conquering the galaxy, etc, etc...) which suggest it is a throwback to past humanoid behavior.
It's hard to understand either of them...
That they evolved to a point where they existed outside of space/time, and lost their perception of linear time. Having lost their view of what is present, past or future, they send orbs to the Bajorans as if communicating with them from the present.
They are actually communicating with their past selves! - A paradox..
If the Prophets evolved to the state they are, then ...that means... they evolved...
The post about being stuck in one state is interesting; if they exist outside time, and do not change, they may just stay the same, eon after eon, though for them there is no time...
And the other possibility is that they've always existed- since they live outside of time, there is no beginning or end for them, since these are time frames.
That would mean that they are totally alien, beyond weird. Even the Q have a frame of reference for their beginning- they spoke of how a "new era" began for them;
And yet here is another contradiction:
Ok, so from this dialogue, somehow the Q came to the point where they got their powers. Yet they've always existed.
The Prophets exist outside of time, yet they claim to be of Bajor. And there are " bad Prophets" which seem to have very "coporeal" motives, (conquering the galaxy, etc, etc...) which suggest it is a throwback to past humanoid behavior.
It's hard to understand either of them...
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They both came into existence within time, and they both exist outside of time, and as such "began" to exist at all time, and so in a sense, always did exist.
the prophets could be bajorans millions of years post DS9, and still be the prophets during DS9.
these are not novel, or new perspectives on time, lots of people who spent the sixties frying their brains on acid proposed this kind of stuff.
it is not linear logic, and it doesn't have to be.
"you can't break the laws of physics, but you can bend them"
~DS9 Some Wacky Augments.
the prophets could be bajorans millions of years post DS9, and still be the prophets during DS9.
these are not novel, or new perspectives on time, lots of people who spent the sixties frying their brains on acid proposed this kind of stuff.
it is not linear logic, and it doesn't have to be.
"you can't break the laws of physics, but you can bend them"
~DS9 Some Wacky Augments.
The Q live in linear time, the Prophets don't. The Prophets only seem to have powers near the wormhole. They have a special relationship with the Bajorans and Bajor is close to the wormhole. The Q, on the other hand, can do anything anywhere in the universe. They also are much more interested in interacting with other species. It is possible they have been like humans. The Q are definitely more powerful, at least when talking about the whole universe.
It is true that we haven't seen the Prophets do things the Q do and they could be able to do them if they wanted but their powers seem to have a certain range. They were "of Bajor", not "of Species 8472". Also, when the Dominion fleet was disappeared, it was inside the wormhole. It is possible they could do things the Q do near the wormhole.
As for why the Prophets changed during DS9, they don't exist in linear time. We just can't use linear logic on them.
As noted earlier in this thread, the Pah-Wraiths' motives are quite "corporeal". Perhaps the Prophets evolved from corporeal beings and some of them still had "corporeal" motives?
It is true that we haven't seen the Prophets do things the Q do and they could be able to do them if they wanted but their powers seem to have a certain range. They were "of Bajor", not "of Species 8472". Also, when the Dominion fleet was disappeared, it was inside the wormhole. It is possible they could do things the Q do near the wormhole.
As for why the Prophets changed during DS9, they don't exist in linear time. We just can't use linear logic on them.
As noted earlier in this thread, the Pah-Wraiths' motives are quite "corporeal". Perhaps the Prophets evolved from corporeal beings and some of them still had "corporeal" motives?
I seem to recall Sisko having an orb experience while playing Ruby, My Dear on the piano in his father's restaurant on Earth. That's a long way from the wormhole.
Vorlons
(sorry)
(sorry)
or Adonis? hehe
What about the anti-time anomaly in All Good Things? The Q are capable of destroying all life in the galaxy if they felt like it.
Where does the idea that the Q exist in linear time come from? They can travel back and forth through time. (Q-Pid, Death Wish & All Good Things...) They can create and travel through the time of parallel Universes (All Good Things...) Q knew that changing Picard's history would have no impact the time line. (Tapestry) Q states that humans have come too far, too fast. (Q Who?) In Voyager, Q also knew that the Federation should not be in the Delta Quadrent, at that time. (Death Wish)
It seems that the Q exist both within and outside of linear time simultaneously.
If that is the case then any action the Prophets may take against the Q in the past could be countered by the Q, since they too live in the past.
It seems that the Q exist both within and outside of linear time simultaneously.
If that is the case then any action the Prophets may take against the Q in the past could be countered by the Q, since they too live in the past.
At which point Q will snap his fingers and make them disappear from existence.
Wasn't that created by Picard when he was trying to find the anomaly in the future, causing the disruption to spacetime?
We know the Prophets have effected the past when they jerked Akorem Laan around given that a poem that was "originally" incomplete was later completed. Not that the Q aren't powerful or can't time travel just wondering if his meddling has left an actual imprint in history to indict they have been travelling through time rather than say Q using some sort of illusion to push his point to Picard?
quinn took voyager back to the time before the universe existed, that's somewhat mindboggling because there was no time yet. that would indicate the q are older than the universe. they didn't create it, though, q pondered if torres was the mother of all humanoid races. the only restrictions of q powers appear to be that an individual q can be stripped of them, they can be imprisoned by other q, can be killed by other q, and can not kill themselves. there's either a hierarchy, or two or more q ganging up overpower the individual. i don't recall any indication that another alien species can overpower them, including the prophets.
the prophets originated according to 'accession' on bajor, there might be a restriction to their time travels, and that's the point they achieved that power. they can be imprisoned, the pah-wraiths, the fallen prophets are. their powers are obviously restricticted to the confinements of the wormhole, from where they can produce hallucinations in people somewhere else. they can leave the wormhole and assume humanoid (and probably any other) form, but there is no indication of special powers when they do that, sisko's mom had to seduce his pop the old-fashioned way. the prophets can be killed by less powerful species, i forgot the name of the radiation that can do it. their habitat can be damaged, and destroyed, or be locked up against their will, and their time travel ability can do nothing about it. seems to me they are more vulnerable than the q.
the prophets originated according to 'accession' on bajor, there might be a restriction to their time travels, and that's the point they achieved that power. they can be imprisoned, the pah-wraiths, the fallen prophets are. their powers are obviously restricticted to the confinements of the wormhole, from where they can produce hallucinations in people somewhere else. they can leave the wormhole and assume humanoid (and probably any other) form, but there is no indication of special powers when they do that, sisko's mom had to seduce his pop the old-fashioned way. the prophets can be killed by less powerful species, i forgot the name of the radiation that can do it. their habitat can be damaged, and destroyed, or be locked up against their will, and their time travel ability can do nothing about it. seems to me they are more vulnerable than the q.
Here's an argument that I've read before; the difference between the Q and the Prophets, is that while the Q move through time, the Prophets already exist outside of time.
I guess that would mean that they see the past, present, and future simultaneously.
So according to this idea, they too, could see an action to destroy them long before it happens and take actions to stop it.
And given the Prophets' power to tamper with time, like what they did with that poem, it seems they can alter reality at will.
If that is the case, then they could be capable of making the Q simply disappear by tampering with their past, and it would only appear to happen in mere seconds to us.
Maybe that's what they did with those Dominion ships?
I guess that would mean that they see the past, present, and future simultaneously.
So according to this idea, they too, could see an action to destroy them long before it happens and take actions to stop it.
And given the Prophets' power to tamper with time, like what they did with that poem, it seems they can alter reality at will.
If that is the case, then they could be capable of making the Q simply disappear by tampering with their past, and it would only appear to happen in mere seconds to us.
Maybe that's what they did with those Dominion ships?
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