The proposed Season 5

[J47]

Now, I don't doubt this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I noticed that Memory Alpha has a somewhat extensive section on what might have happened. Many of these I was already familiar with (Kzinti, Shran on the Enterprise), but there was extensive (and, unfortunately, unsourced) discussion of a proposed two-parter called "The Treatment" that would've featured Guinan and Sarek's father. Does anyone know where I could find more information about this, or indeed, about other proposed ideas for Season 5?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

See this thread:

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Number=8174491#Post8174491

 

[MadBaggins]

Maybe they should do a season five comic, like the Buffy writers did.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well Kirk is having his 4th season in comics at the moment and although the 4 issue was outstanding, as it was a right kick in the nuts to NBC who canned them 40 years ago as they encountered a planet Government/society modeled off a 60s TV Network paradigm.

The Buffy Comic is excellent, even though Joss Whedon handed off the writing chores temporarily, and they're planning on making and Angel season 5 next as well.

Enterprise the comic should have happened while Enterprise was on the air. This deathrattle is absurdly lasting an obscene duration.

 

[MattJC]

Guy Gardener said:
Well Kirk is having his 4th season in comics at the moment and although the 4 issue was outstanding, as it was a right kick in the nuts to NBC who canned them 40 years ago as they encountered a planet Government/society modeled off a 60s TV Network paradigm.

The Buffy Comic is excellent, even though Joss Whedon handed off the writing chores temporarily, and they're planning on making and Angel season 5 next as well.

Enterprise the comic should have happened while Enterprise was on the air. This deathrattle is absurdly lasting an obscene duration.

Better late then never.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hardly.

Most of the novels shouldn't have been written and were painful to read. I don't don't know how I struggled through page after page, it was like masturbating with a cheese grater.

O. And Angel Season 5 the comic began yesterday.

 

[Kegek]

I'm not really a proponent of cross-media continuations. Season 5 would have been interesting, but it didn't happen. If you really want a continuation, there are the licensed works. As the creative staff is different (barring one novel by Mike Sussman, I believe), and the objectives are different (more fan service is possible), these need not and likely do not resemble what Season 5 would have been.

And, of course, had Season 5 been a done deal 'These Are the Voyages' would not have been made and Trip's death not been a factor to deal with. Enterprise has had its end, a tepid one, maybe, but that was as final as any finale: Trip's dead, and everyone else is moving on.

 

[J47]

Enterprise has had its end, a tepid one, maybe, but that was as final as any finale: Trip's dead, and everyone else is moving on.

If you believe that, you clearly haven't gotten around to reading the fantastic The Good That Men Do by Andy Mangels & Martin A. Martin.

Thanks for the link, HopefulRomantic

 

[Kegek]

J47 said:
If you believe that, you clearly haven't gotten around to reading the fantastic The Good That Men Do by Andy Mangels & Martin A. Martin.

I've heard about that. It's kind of essential for their purposes - if one wants to fill in the intervening six years, you probably don't want this episode in the way as far as character development and ultimate fate goes.

Which is why it was written as a finale; it closed the book. That book's got to be forced open if anything else is to be written therein.

 

[Hoshi fan]

J47 said:
Now, I don't doubt this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I noticed that Memory Alpha has a somewhat extensive section on what might have happened. Many of these I was already familiar with (Kzinti, Shran on the Enterprise), but there was extensive (and, unfortunately, unsourced) discussion of a proposed two-parter called "The Treatment" that would've featured Guinan and Sarek's father. Does anyone know where I could find more information about this, or indeed, about other proposed ideas for Season 5?

Its sad we didnt get a 5th season. I for one wanted to see a BETTER goodbye plus with some of the things you meition, we could have had the begining of the Romulan war!
I think Shran would have made a great addition to the ENTERPRISE crew.

 

[Sci]

Kegek said:

J47 said:
If you believe that, you clearly haven't gotten around to reading the fantastic The Good That Men Do by Andy Mangels & Martin A. Martin.

I've heard about that. It's kind of essential for their purposes - if one wants to fill in the intervening six years, you probably don't want this episode in the way as far as character development and ultimate fate goes.

Which is why it was written as a finale; it closed the book. That book's got to be forced open if anything else is to be written therein.

The issue really isn't so much that "These Are the Voyages..." closed the book as that it closed the book really really badly. So badly, in point of fact, that A) the book wasn't completely closed, and B) pages were wrinkled. So The Good That Men Do set out to change a lot of the very poor and arbitrary dramatic choices made in "These Are the Voyages" while setting things up to tell a much more interesting story than the TV series ever did -- hopefully one that will lead to a far more satisfying ending for the characters once it's all done.

 

[Kegek]

Sci said:
The issue really isn't so much that "These Are the Voyages..." closed the book as that it closed the book really really badly.

Even if fans were all moved by the death of Trip and it was a very popular episode, they'd still have to find a way to work him back in. Low opinion of the episode certainly helped.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I was moved by his death in oberser effect, and I was really moved by Sims death, and hardly noticed the almost nearly dying in the same manner as he really did a year or so later in similitude.

Did he really think they were going to clone more body parts for him if he blew himself up again?

 

[JiNX-01]

Kegek said:

Sci said:
The issue really isn't so much that "These Are the Voyages..." closed the book as that it closed the book really really badly.

Even if fans were all moved by the death of Trip and it was a very popular episode, they'd still have to find a way to work him back in. Low opinion of the episode certainly helped.

These are the Voyages is set in 2161.
If there had been a season 5, it would have been 2155.
ETA: The problem would have been this: If you were prepared to accept the inconsistency and stupidity of TATV as "the future" of the NX-01, then it would have eliminated any drama concerning the dangers to the crew because we'd all know that they are all going to survive unscathed at least until 2161.

 

[Kegek]

JiNX-01 said:
ETA: The problem would have been this: If you were prepared to accept the inconsistency and stupidity of TATV as "the future" of the NX-01, then it would have eliminated any drama concerning the dangers to the crew because we'd all know that they are all going to survive unscathed at least until 2161.

Precisely. Even if 'These Are the Voyages' was considered a good episode, this would remain a problem. This is what differs it from 'All Good Things...' and 'Endgame', which show hypothetical and/or superseded futures. This one is reputedly a matter of historical record, so, as the novelists had to do, the record had to be proved false for them to have freedom with their narrative.

 

[Sci]

JiNX-01 said:

Kegek said:

Sci said:
The issue really isn't so much that "These Are the Voyages..." closed the book as that it closed the book really really badly.

Even if fans were all moved by the death of Trip and it was a very popular episode, they'd still have to find a way to work him back in. Low opinion of the episode certainly helped.

These are the Voyages is set in 2161.
If there had been a season 5, it would have been 2155.
ETA: The problem would have been this: If you were prepared to accept the inconsistency and stupidity of TATV as "the future" of the NX-01, then it would have eliminated any drama concerning the dangers to the crew because we'd all know that they are all going to survive unscathed at least until 2161.

I don't agree with that at all. We all knew going into the A Time To... miniseries that the TNG crew survives to star in Star Trek Nemesis, but that didn't stop those novels from being exciting and dramatic. In point of fact, setting novels between "Terra Prime" and "These Are the Voyages..." would mean only that the canonical characters would be safe; that'd be six years to introduce and develop original characters who might not be safe at all. Would Commander Donna O'Neil, the night watch commander, be okay, for instance?

Kegek said:

Sci said:
The issue really isn't so much that "These Are the Voyages..." closed the book as that it closed the book really really badly.

Even if fans were all moved by the death of Trip and it was a very popular episode, they'd still have to find a way to work him back in. Low opinion of the episode certainly helped.

1) The novels have usually respected canonical deaths. They didn't try to work Jadzia back into the DS9 Relaunch, for instance, nor have they tried to bring Data back into the post-NEM TNG novels.

2) Under the scenerio you're proposing, they would have had six years' worth of stories to feature Trip in between "Terra Prime" and "These Are the Voyages...," so there would have been no need to "work him back in" if he had not yet left.

 

[Kegek]

Sci said:
1) The novels have usually respected canonical deaths. They didn't try to work Jadzia back into the DS9 Relaunch, for instance, nor have they tried to bring Data back into the post-NEM TNG novels.

Jadzia isn't a good example, as she was worked back onto the show as Ezri. Data is a better one, and the novels I understand have purposefully ignored the backdoor that B-4 provides. Still, I'll counter you Trip and raise you Kirk.

2) Under the scenerio you're proposing, they would have had six years' worth of stories to feature Trip in between "Terra Prime" and "These Are the Voyages...," so there would have been no need to "work him back in" if he had not yet left.

Yes, but they clearly found that scenario inadequate. They had six years where little changed and no real fruitition came to Trip and T'Pol, it would have been a dull time to see. So they scrapped it.

 

[J47]

Kegek said:

Sci said:
1) The novels have usually respected canonical deaths. They didn't try to work Jadzia back into the DS9 Relaunch, for instance, nor have they tried to bring Data back into the post-NEM TNG novels.

Jadzia isn't a good example, as she was worked back onto the show as Ezri. Data is a better one, and the novels I understand have purposefully ignored the backdoor that B-4 provides. Still, I'll counter you Trip and raise you Kirk.

With the exception of the bizarre Shatnerverse novels, Kirk has been left alone. Trek XI is more likely to change that than the novels.

2) Under the scenerio you're proposing, they would have had six years' worth of stories to feature Trip in between "Terra Prime" and "These Are the Voyages...," so there would have been no need to "work him back in" if he had not yet left.

Yes, but they clearly found that scenario inadequate. They had six years where little changed and no real fruitition came to Trip and T'Pol, it would have been a dull time to see. So they scrapped it.

That's really not it though. The Pocket editors have been more than happy to fill in the blanks (Worf's time in the Klingon Empire, Picard & co's adventures between Insurrection & Nemesis). What they're doing with the Enterprise books is handling the inconsistencies inherent within TATV itself. They haven't scrapped anything - indeed, everything remains virtually intact. They're simply showing what the holodeck recreation in TATV failed to show.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

^ Indeed. I think the writers/editors at Pocket have taken the right approach with TATV, treating it as "in-continuity" fictional treatment of a historic event that failed to get the details right. It's almost like a movie based on a real life events. Take American Gangster for example.

In the movie, there's a scene where Frank Lucas (Denzel Washington) shoots another Harlem gangster on the street in broad daylight and in front of a crowd. He shoots him once in the head. What really happened was that (the real) Frank Lucas shot the guy in an alley and, as he has repeated, he shot him "four times not once."

 

[gblews]

Kegek said:

Sci said:
2) Under the scenerio you're proposing, they would have had six years' worth of stories to feature Trip in between "Terra Prime" and "These Are the Voyages...," so there would have been no need to "work him back in" if he had not yet left.

Yes, but they clearly found that scenario inadequate. They had six years where little changed and no real fruitition came to Trip and T'Pol, it would have been a dull time to see. So they scrapped it.

Sounds like a circular argument to me. Berman was quoted as stating that TaTV would have been different (if presented at all), if they'd been given a season 5. So there would not a been a need to even consider the events depicted in the hologram in the subsequent seasons.

And of course, we would also not have seen "The Good That Men Do", at least wouldn't have seen it this soon.