I am relatively new to the entire Star Trek universe, but after having finished watching both TNG and DS9, I can not help but wonder if the Prophets, as a lifeform, is anything similiar to the Q Continuum. So, my question to all you Trek experts is: What is the difference between the Q Continuum and the Prophets? That is, what other similiarity exist between them and differences, and which of these two life form is at a higher level of evolutionary advantage?
The Prophets vs Q Continuum
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Interesting question(s) and honestly it's not one I've really thought a lot about so here is my take. Besides The Q and The Prophets through out the history of Star Trek we have been introduced to a few other non-corporeal lifeforms and I think it's safe to assume in the universe there are more of these non-corporeal lifeforms.
So given that the universe is populated by other energy based lifeforms like The Q & The Prophets I would say they are probably about as far apart from each other in the same way that most humanoid lifeforms are from each other. Also, it's not clear if The Q and The Prophets have any kind of relationship or which one is more "evolved"
Did we ever see any evidence that the prophets were able to project their power from beyond the wormhole? I mean other than stuff like Orbs, I'm talking about directly.
In fact, it seemed like at many times during the series the wormhole was in danger and it was talked about as if the prophets would die if something bad happened to the wormhole. Doesn't sound very Q-like.
In fact, it seemed like at many times during the series the wormhole was in danger and it was talked about as if the prophets would die if something bad happened to the wormhole. Doesn't sound very Q-like.
Withers
Captain
They were subject to chroniton radiation and could be killed by it apparently. The Q were certainly never in any danger of something like that from human beings.
As to the Prophets projecting their power beyond the Wormhole... well, that's complicated. Look at the events of Shadows and Symbols. Weyoun actually says to Damar that it's inexplicable but releasing the Pah-Wraith into the wormhole turned the tide of the entire war in their favor. Add to that this; The entire cast is about to be annihilated (in three different scenarios); Kira and Odo are about to be vaporized by Romulans, Bashir, O'Brien, Worf, Martok and Quark are all about to die in a failed attempt to blow up the shipyards at Rondak, and Sisko is about to lose his mind and be trapped inside a Pah-Wraith created vision.
Sisko finally opens the Orb, the Sarah Sisko Prophet casts out the Pah-Wraith from the wormhole, and suddenly Ross changes his mind making the Romulans back down which saves Kira and Odo, the mission at Rondak suddenly turns in our heroes favor, and Sisko comes to terms and has a vision from the Prophets clarifying that he did the right thing.
Could it all be coincidence? Of course it could. It's maybe even likely that it is... but you can never be absolutely sure of that because it was left intentionally vague (I think anyway.) If all of that were thanks to the Prophets I would say their influence stretches way beyond the wormhole and has very tangible consequences, more so than the Q ever had (save for maybe that whole...super nova business on Voyager... but that was silly.)
So it boils down to whether or not you "believe" in the Prophets.
As to the Prophets projecting their power beyond the Wormhole... well, that's complicated. Look at the events of Shadows and Symbols. Weyoun actually says to Damar that it's inexplicable but releasing the Pah-Wraith into the wormhole turned the tide of the entire war in their favor. Add to that this; The entire cast is about to be annihilated (in three different scenarios); Kira and Odo are about to be vaporized by Romulans, Bashir, O'Brien, Worf, Martok and Quark are all about to die in a failed attempt to blow up the shipyards at Rondak, and Sisko is about to lose his mind and be trapped inside a Pah-Wraith created vision.
Sisko finally opens the Orb, the Sarah Sisko Prophet casts out the Pah-Wraith from the wormhole, and suddenly Ross changes his mind making the Romulans back down which saves Kira and Odo, the mission at Rondak suddenly turns in our heroes favor, and Sisko comes to terms and has a vision from the Prophets clarifying that he did the right thing.
Could it all be coincidence? Of course it could. It's maybe even likely that it is... but you can never be absolutely sure of that because it was left intentionally vague (I think anyway.) If all of that were thanks to the Prophets I would say their influence stretches way beyond the wormhole and has very tangible consequences, more so than the Q ever had (save for maybe that whole...super nova business on Voyager... but that was silly.)
So it boils down to whether or not you "believe" in the Prophets.
-Withers-
That is brlliantly stated and I do appreciate that even in Star Trek which more about the characters interacting with science and technology that there is a spiritual component with in the Star Trek universe. Now, when I say spiritual I don't mean to connect it to any religion since those are creations of people but the exploration of higher plains are something else.
I was going to suggest you might 'spoiler' mark the passage starting about here, but then I re-read it and realised I couldn't make head nor tail of it, perhaps you've been touched by the prophets and you're 'speaking in tongues'.
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There are two types of religion:
1. Religion of the Individual - Which is ones personal mythology, and is always unique to the person as no matter what type 2 religion the person might consider themselves belonging to will always include some heresy. More attention should be paid in our western democracies to the religion of the individual. This religion, faith or belief is created by the individual and rarely can be expressed adequately using a mode of communication that was originally designed 'to tell the other monkeys where the fruit is.'
2. Religion of the Community - Which usually comes down to a set of rules, coda or commandments in a book. Can be beneficial, but should be viewed with some suspicion as most of them believe in bothering non-believers, either to convert them or to assert that they are somehow better than them. This type of religion is created by somebody or group of somebodies seeking power.
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Honestly, I would say no where near the level of Q.
They cannot travel outside the wormhole (only in a spirit form or in someone. They cannot actually change time itself, they can only speak in riddles, they always refer everyone as corporeal (just reminds me of the arrogance of the changlings). They cant actually do anything just tell sisko what to do and he does it.
All I see them doing is having some influence over the wormhole really. Lets say that there are 10 dimensions the prophets may can only control like 4 where Q can not only control all 10 but bend the will of the universe to make all other dimensions follow whatever he changed. And he seems he can make everything go in a place outside of time itself. And he can control death itself.
Short the prophets may be powerful to our standards but the prophets seem only to control things directly in the path of the worm hole. Where as Q can control every galaxy, every inch of space
They cannot travel outside the wormhole (only in a spirit form or in someone. They cannot actually change time itself, they can only speak in riddles, they always refer everyone as corporeal (just reminds me of the arrogance of the changlings). They cant actually do anything just tell sisko what to do and he does it.
All I see them doing is having some influence over the wormhole really. Lets say that there are 10 dimensions the prophets may can only control like 4 where Q can not only control all 10 but bend the will of the universe to make all other dimensions follow whatever he changed. And he seems he can make everything go in a place outside of time itself. And he can control death itself.
Short the prophets may be powerful to our standards but the prophets seem only to control things directly in the path of the worm hole. Where as Q can control every galaxy, every inch of space
If the prophets can be killed than I can't take them seriously as gods or beings worthy of adulation, worship, or submission honestly.
The very fact that they can be killed IMHO ought to discredit Bajorans religion then and there it's demonstrated.
At least beings like Q and the organians can't die(at least that we're aware of).
So Q wins no contest.
The very fact that they can be killed IMHO ought to discredit Bajorans religion then and there it's demonstrated.
At least beings like Q and the organians can't die(at least that we're aware of).
So Q wins no contest.
^That's funny, because some would never consider the Q gods despite their immortality; while others would accept as gods those whom have died. Maybe it's not so much about the physical form but the metaphysical aspects - and we did see that the Prophets existed in some dimension outside of spacetime, that very well could have some kind of afterlife effect on Bajorans, for all we know. So I guess what I'm saying is that immortality is not a litmus of godhood.
Trek has any number of energy beings/noncorporeal entities:
Q
Bajoran Prophets
Organians
Medusans
Squire of Gothos
Cytherians
Douwd (you remember that all-powerful godlike being, Kevin)
Metrons
Calamerain
Caretaker
Moriarty & Co.
Plus a host of unnamed intelligent nebula matter-energy clouds, some with names (Nagilum), and also, normal humanoids that have shed their bodies to exist as energy - including the Zalkonians - and even the Vulcans. Janeway even encountered an alien "devil" trying to lure her into his "matrix", and she wondered about near death experiences as being (mundane) alien encounters.
I suppose these beings have differing degrees of involvement in the physical spacetime continuum; some aloof, some actively invested in it. Some emerging from this universe, others encountering it from outside.
I guess the lesson here is that we can evolve into higher states of being if we really try. Or also likley, make the universe a computer program like a (Keanu-type) Matrix, where godlike evolution is merely a cradle-to-grave illusion. Or even better, the recorded engrams of once-living beings could be self-aware replicas - who think they are omnipotent, but exist only in a Moriarty server.
This would explain Trump's hair. (Ha ha, I went topical).
Trek has any number of energy beings/noncorporeal entities:
Q
Bajoran Prophets
Organians
Medusans
Squire of Gothos
Cytherians
Douwd (you remember that all-powerful godlike being, Kevin)
Metrons
Calamerain
Caretaker
Moriarty & Co.
Plus a host of unnamed intelligent nebula matter-energy clouds, some with names (Nagilum), and also, normal humanoids that have shed their bodies to exist as energy - including the Zalkonians - and even the Vulcans. Janeway even encountered an alien "devil" trying to lure her into his "matrix", and she wondered about near death experiences as being (mundane) alien encounters.
I suppose these beings have differing degrees of involvement in the physical spacetime continuum; some aloof, some actively invested in it. Some emerging from this universe, others encountering it from outside.
I guess the lesson here is that we can evolve into higher states of being if we really try. Or also likley, make the universe a computer program like a (Keanu-type) Matrix, where godlike evolution is merely a cradle-to-grave illusion. Or even better, the recorded engrams of once-living beings could be self-aware replicas - who think they are omnipotent, but exist only in a Moriarty server.
This would explain Trump's hair. (Ha ha, I went topical).
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The calemerain, caretaker and quite a few of the other aliens you mention were like ants compared to the q-hardly gods. The prophets don't exist from the beginning of time until it's end-outside even the multiverse able to shape the universe with a thought-the Q can. If they weren't such morally ambiguous and often insufferable creatures than I would say they probably should be worshipped-but their morality is lacking. The prophets don't exist outside spacetime per se-just in a sort of extratemporal dimension that is connected to the wormhole and Bajor somehow someway.
Any being that can be killed is not a god.
To use another fandom LOTR for example the Valar are immensely powerful-perhaps even the equivalent of the prophets or some of the aliens you mention if not greater-Eru like the Q exists outside the universe and isn't bound by it in anyway including death.
The fact that the prophets can be killed shows they really don't deserve the worship of the bajorans much less the obeisance of Starfleet and a particular troubled officer's obedience.
The Q can be killed, as we saw in Deja Q and The Q and the Gray.
They are not all-powerful for all time.
For all we know, the only power of the Q is to manipulate electrochemical sensation on a mass scale. That is considerably beneath omnipotence.
Avatars die, yet they can be considered divine, I think I read that somewhere. No, not the blue ones.
I'm not sure what use ranking energy beings by power achieves, (is it a contest)? Nor would someone, particularly Bajorans, have to accept your labeling of the Prophets as non-divine as a self-evident fact. You see, you and I are not in a position to authorize divinity. Only to judge whether you yourself wish to accept a fictional race as such or not.
I'm not sure if you are arguing divinity vs non-divinity, or the validity of divinity itself. I can say, though, that the mantle probably doesn't rest with your or my say so.
The Q are not gods and do not deserve worship any more than Picard did in Who Watches the Watchers. The jury is out on the epic good vs evil Pah/Wraiths.
Oh, and add the Edo god to my list.
They are not all-powerful for all time.
For all we know, the only power of the Q is to manipulate electrochemical sensation on a mass scale. That is considerably beneath omnipotence.
Avatars die, yet they can be considered divine, I think I read that somewhere. No, not the blue ones.
I'm not sure what use ranking energy beings by power achieves, (is it a contest)? Nor would someone, particularly Bajorans, have to accept your labeling of the Prophets as non-divine as a self-evident fact. You see, you and I are not in a position to authorize divinity. Only to judge whether you yourself wish to accept a fictional race as such or not.
I'm not sure if you are arguing divinity vs non-divinity, or the validity of divinity itself. I can say, though, that the mantle probably doesn't rest with your or my say so.
The Q are not gods and do not deserve worship any more than Picard did in Who Watches the Watchers. The jury is out on the epic good vs evil Pah/Wraiths.
Oh, and add the Edo god to my list.
Ah the pah wraiths-when DS9 became a D&D fantasy gig-yes wow evil prophets that want to burn the whole alpha quadrant! When people say DS9 is the best trek I must assume people who loved DS9 thought Roddenberry was some drug crazed hippy who never left Beverly Hills.
I mean the cynicism in the series is incredible. I won't say Voyager or Hell Enterprise was a masterpiece or perfect by far and I'll acknowledge DS9 willingness to buck trends but wow-Section 31, the prophets, the Dominion War, and **** criminal captains who we're supposed to empathize with.
I'm sorry about the rant but Jesus Christ DS9 Bucks my nerves.
Okay maybe the Q can kill the Q but not mere mortals by far. If the average Greek hoplite can find away to destroy Zeus then would anyone worship the Greek pantheon?
No of course not-the prophets powers are limited at best they can manipulate events near the wormhole and maybe just maybe farther afield, maybe the cardassians had they stayed and discovered the wormhole would have applied chroniton radiation to crush both the prophets and bajorans resistance once and for all.
No of course not-the prophets powers are limited at best they can manipulate events near the wormhole and maybe just maybe farther afield, maybe the cardassians had they stayed and discovered the wormhole would have applied chroniton radiation to crush both the prophets and bajorans resistance once and for all.
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Q even has stated as much that he is no god, (yes he teases picard, but that is for his own amusement). He has even stated in TNG that they have evolved into the Q even though the Q cant remember a time where they wasnt Q. So Q continuum just may be the most known evolved species (whoever they where before).
We dont even know if they are from the milky-way or from some other galaxy eons of eons of light years away. He told picard that humans just may as well evolved past the Q one day. He has also stated to picard that there are things in the universe that he couldn't begin to understand or even comprehend, the mere thought of what is out in the universe is maddening.
The prophets may be worshiped by the bajorans but just because something is worshiped doesn't make them gods. (just look at the changlings). But what we are talking about is who is more powerful. Picard was shot his heart frying his plastic heart, Q took him in death and allowed him to change his life (actually changing history) just to teach picard a lesson. And furthermore was going to take picards plastic heart and give him a spanking brand new organic human heart.
We dont even know if they are from the milky-way or from some other galaxy eons of eons of light years away. He told picard that humans just may as well evolved past the Q one day. He has also stated to picard that there are things in the universe that he couldn't begin to understand or even comprehend, the mere thought of what is out in the universe is maddening.
The prophets may be worshiped by the bajorans but just because something is worshiped doesn't make them gods. (just look at the changlings). But what we are talking about is who is more powerful. Picard was shot his heart frying his plastic heart, Q took him in death and allowed him to change his life (actually changing history) just to teach picard a lesson. And furthermore was going to take picards plastic heart and give him a spanking brand new organic human heart.
Just having seen and confirmed that apparently Sarah Sisko was possessed by a prophet-that's a little disturbing the main character's mom is possessed by these weird alien thingies.
Anyway I apologize for my vulgarity.
The prophets have never set well with me-the writers want us(the viewers to treat them as gods not aliens) and by the end of the series they had basically drilled that premise into the heads of the audience anyway I just hated that.
Anyway I apologize for my vulgarity.
The prophets have never set well with me-the writers want us(the viewers to treat them as gods not aliens) and by the end of the series they had basically drilled that premise into the heads of the audience anyway I just hated that.
I also didnt care for the set-up of the bajoran system, To be honest I really cant stand bajorans!! only kira because I want to get her naked but other than that, I say forget them, let them keep their own stuff and let them deal with the cardassians, we just build a station closer to the wormhole. And If I was sisko that fu*k B*tch "kai winn" would have been thrown out the door lock first time she tried grabbing my ear and called me child. "oh yeah if I was sisko DS9 would have ended a whole lot dffrent.
The Prophets may be more powerful than we think.
They exist outside of time, not within it, so they see the past, present, future simultaneously.
A lot of the evolved entities seemed to be stuck within time and couldn't time travel. Apparently the Dowd couldn't do it, otherwise he could have retrieved his wife from the past. The Prophets suggested it was easy for them.
Then in one episode they altered a person's entire personality. In another, they (or the Wraiths) brought a person back from the dead.
On one hand they seem limited, on the other in certain episodes you see them doing weird but powerful things
They exist outside of time, not within it, so they see the past, present, future simultaneously.
A lot of the evolved entities seemed to be stuck within time and couldn't time travel. Apparently the Dowd couldn't do it, otherwise he could have retrieved his wife from the past. The Prophets suggested it was easy for them.
Then in one episode they altered a person's entire personality. In another, they (or the Wraiths) brought a person back from the dead.
On one hand they seem limited, on the other in certain episodes you see them doing weird but powerful things
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