The Problems with Prequels...

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Ah here is that quote from Christopher from a while back:

The problem -- and those maps illustrate this quite well -- is that human beings have no ability to grasp just how immense the Milky Way is. We have no reference for it. We may have some idea of the difference in size between a city and a continent, or a city and the whole Earth (although most people's estimate of either of those is probably way off), but the difference in scale between a single star system and the entire galaxy is immensely greater.

One way to look at it is in terms of numbers. The galaxy has something like 4-500 billion stars. Even if the Federation could visit a new one every single day, it would take more than a billion years to visit every star in the galaxy. In three centuries at that rate, the most they could cover would be 0.002% of the galaxy. Even in that 4-5% covered in Star Charts, the vast majority of star systems would probably have never been visited by anything but unmanned probes at best.

Even if we conservatively assume that only, say, one star in a million has sentient life, that's still nearly half a million intelligent species, so if you could visit one per day, it would still take over 1,300 years to contact them all. And in Trek, sentient life seems to be far more common than that.
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Referring to the map in Star Trek: Star Charts:

That tiny dot contains the entire Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Tholian, Breen, and Ferengi territories with plenty of extra room besides. You can also see how tiny the space is between the Idran system and the Founder homeworld (and frankly I think the book greatly overestimates the scale of things in the Gamma Quadrant), and you can see the very narrow line representing Voyager's journey (and keep in mind that the ship actually skipped over most of that line thanks to various transwarp jumps and wormholes and the like, so it's really just a few short, scattered dashes along that line). All the exploration we've seen in all the Trek shows has covered only a few tiny specks of the galaxy. Even if you throw in the "Approximate Limit of Explored Space" outline around the UFP and its neighbors, I'd say the total explored volume adds up to less than 5% of the entire Milky Way. And that map is based on an old assumption about the galaxy's radius -- we now think the galactic disk might actually be 60% wider, meaning it would have over 2.5 times the total area. Which would mean the explored total would be less than 2% of the whole.
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Bold added for emphasis.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm pretty sure Berman never saw TOS. I could be wrong. But in any case, it really seems like neither of them knew what they were doing when it came to ENT.

A lot of that came from network interference. They didn't actually get to make the show they wanted to. Things like the Temporal Cold War were network mandated.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Anyone noticed this inconsistency?

In season 1 the Andorians don't even know about transporter technology but by season 4 they have site to site transporters which at that point are still nearly 200 years in starfleet's future!

Are you referring to an Andorian calling Reed's transporter strike team "some kind of energy fluctuation"? Because obviously there are many different ways of interpreting that comment. For example, that he just didn't recognise Earth transporter technology, and just saw it as an energy reading.

Archer specifically asks if the Andorians have a transporter and she says they do not.

But this is not an inconsistency. "Kir'Shara" is three years later. Three years before we had a transporter, we didn't have one. Things change over time, and sometimes even overnight. Andorian scientists could already have been working on idea of a transporter, but it was still theoretical enough that military personnel like Shran and his men wouldn't be familiar with it. Maybe the readings they took at P'Jem actually helped them in the development of this technology after being brought back and analyzed. Maybe a lot of things.

And it is a myth that site-to-site transport could not be done until the TNG era. It seems to have been done readily in "A Piece Of The Action" (TOS) and in the 23rd century segments of Generations. There was a concern in "The Day Of The Dove" about intra-ship beaming, i.e. transporting to another compartment within the same ship, because of the danger of materializing inside a deck or wall if not precise. Due to this hazard, it was rarely done, but it was possible. And in that case, Kirk wasn't even being beamed site-to-site, but from the pad, so I don't know why Okuda's Encyclopedia included this note under that subject to begin with.

 

[locutus101]

Archer specifically asks if the Andorians have a transporter and she says they do not.

But this is not an inconsistency. "Kir'Shara" is three years later. Three years before we had a transporter, we didn't have one. Things change over time, and sometimes even overnight. Andorian scientists could already have been working on idea of a transporter, but it was still theoretical enough that military personnel like Shran and his men wouldn't be familiar with it. Maybe the readings they took at P'Jem actually helped them in the development of this technology after being brought back and analyzed. Maybe a lot of things.

And it is a myth that site-to-site transport could not be done until the TNG era. There is nothing to say this could not be done by the time of TOS, and moreover it in fact seems to have been done readily in "A Piece Of The Action." There was a concern in "The Day Of The Dove" about intra-ship beaming, i.e. transporting to another compartment within the same ship, because of the danger of materializing inside a deck or wall. Due to this, it was rarely done, but it was possible. And in that case, Kirk wasn't even being beamed site-to-site, but from the pad, so I don't know why Okuda's Encyclopedia included this note under that subject to begin with.

My point is that in three years they develop site to site transporters which are 200 years in the future of Archer's people (Starfleet doesn't even exist yet).

Plus the military are often aware of technologic breakthroughs before the general population, especially in warring societies like the Andorians.

 

[T'Arwen]

The thing with prequels is it sorta eliminates that sense of awe and wonder. With TNG you had this whole new area of space opened up because it was taking place a century after TOS. And VOY -had- the same potential by opening up the Delta Quadrant but granted they really didn't take advantage of that. IMO prequels eliminate that

Second where TNG or TOS could be about weekly adventures as explorers prequels have to cater to fans expectations of building up TOS so the series is less it's own thing and more of a piece of a larger franchise. You could see this happening with ENT in season four where it was less about the crew and more about familiar cultures, political intrigue, filling in backstory and connecting pieces for things that were to come. I enjoyed that but was hoping to get back to basics and more of a TOS/TNG approach at least at the beginning with interesting standalones and less about the macro level stuff

Being prequel actually increased the sense of wonder for the characters at least. In TNG, the characters have seen planets where the way was already paved. In season 1 of ENT, they reacted very differently because they were seeing it all for the first time. And by extension, the audience is meant to feel the same. They didn't do it enough but that's another story.

I do agree that fans have more preconceived expectations of prequels. But for Trek, they take it to a whole new level. You can't please everyone. Some people say prequels can never show new species and planets. But back in the day, I was on Star Wars forums and I can tell you this was not an issue at all. If Star Wars fans were like Trekkies, the biggest problem with Jar Jar would not be that he's annoying. It would be that we never saw Gungans in the OT. I have yet to hear anyone from that school of thought tell me why other prequels can show previously unknown species but ENT/DIS can't.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

My point is that in three years they develop site to site transporters which are 200 years in the future of Archer's people (Starfleet doesn't even exist yet).

As I pointed out, they are not "200 years in the future of Archer's people"; that's a myth. There is really no reason it should have to take a long time to realize you can use transporters this way once you have them. It's essentially just the same procedure as Tucker performed with the Malurian anitmatter reactor at the end of "Civilaztion"; you just skip the peek he took at it in between. The information or energy is still following the same path, from one location to the transporter, then through it to another location. It's just that you don't materialize the subject in between. Seems like exactly the kind of thing those sneaky Andorians would think of before we did.

(And Starfleet exists; it is the organization Archer works for.)

 

[locutus101]

As I pointed out, they are not "200 years in the future of Archer's people"; that's a myth. There is really no reason it should have to take a long time to realize you can use transporters this way once you have them. It's essentially just the same procedure as Tucker performed with the Malurian anitmatter reactor at the end of "Civilaztion"; you just skip the peek he took at it in between. The information or energy is still following the same path, from one location to the transporter, then through it to another location. It's just that you don't materialize the subject in between. Seems like exactly the kind of thing those sneaky Andorians would think of before we did.

(And Starfleet exists; it is the organization Archer works for.)

How do you explain then that the federation didn't get site to site transporters before TNG? Maybe they are stupid.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I was kinda surprised by the announcement of the Prime Universe Pike era TOS setting of Star Trek: Discovery. I'm really curious how they are going to pull this off. I can't wait for the first footage of this show.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

How do you explain then that the federation didn't get site to site transporters before TNG? Maybe they are stupid.

You don't need a "special" kind of transporter to do a site-to-site transport. And I told you, it was done in TOS. And in The Voyage Home. And in the 23rd century segments of Generations. Where are you getting this business about it not being done before TNG?

 

[BillJ]

You don't need a "special" kind of transporter to do a site-to-site transport. And I told you, it was done in TOS.

Didn't they beam the folks to the Enterprise then beam them back down?

 

[locutus101]

You don't need a "special" kind of transporter to do a site-to-site transport. And I told you, it was done in TOS. And in The Voyage Home. And in the 23rd century segments of Generations. Where are you getting this business about it not being done before TNG?

First the "23rd century segment" of Generations takes place AFTER TNG!
Second I don't remember TOS or TVH ever using site to site transporters.

Could you give me an example on TOS that is easily verifiable?

 

[locutus101]

Didn't they beam the folks to the Enterprise then beam them back down?

That sounds about right.

 

[BillJ]

Either way, Andorian site-to-site transport isn't a big deal. It is fiction and is malleable.

 

[Nerys Myk]

How do you explain then that the federation didn't get site to site transporters before TNG? Maybe they are stupid.

Because they did?

• While on Earth in 1986, Montgomery Scott utilized site-to-site transport capabilities on board a Klingon Bird-of-Prey to transport an away team directly from the elevator of a hospital facility to just outside where the ship was parked. Technically, this was the chronological first known utilization of this technology. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)

• In 2268, Montgomery Scott transported Tepo directly from his headquarters to those of Bela Okmyx. Not counting time travel, this was the first known use of this technology. (TOS: "A Piece of the Action")

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

In 2268, Montgomery Scott transported Tepo directly from his headquarters to those of Bela Okmyx. Not counting time travel, this was the first known use of this technology. (TOS: "A Piece of the Action")

And what is says there about it being the "first known use" in "A Piece Of The Action" is from an out-of-universe perspective, not an in-universe one. That's the first time we the audience saw it done, but there was absolutely nothing in the dialogue to indicate that it was a novel concept to the characters.

First the "23rd century segment" of Generations takes place AFTER TNG!

No, it doesn't. I'm talking about where they beam the El-Aurians directly to the Enterprise-B sickbay at the beginning.

 

[locutus101]

Because they did?

Ok but that was still 150 years in Archer's future and that means that 160 years had passed between the invention of the transporter and the first use of site to site transporters. Are we asked to believe that the Andorians achieved that exploit in only three years. That's beyond belief.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Ok but that was still 150 years in Archer's future and that means that 160 years had passed between the invention of the transporter and the first use of site to site transporters.

Nope, it doesn't mean that at all. That's an inference you're making without good reason. That "site to site transporters" are distinct in some way from regular transporters is another.

 

[locutus101]

Nope, it doesn't mean that at all. That's an inference you're making without good reason. That "site to site transporters" are distinct in some way from regular transporters is another.

For one thing you never see them used on TOS. The link confirms it. A long period of time elapses between the invention of the transporter and TOS.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Ok but that was still 150 years in Archer's future and that means that 160 years had passed between the invention of the transporter and the first use of site to site transporters. Are we asked to believe that the Andorians achieved that exploit in only three years. That's beyond belief.

I don't think it's presented as something new or unusual.

[Oxmyx's office]

KIRK: Keep him until I send for him. We're going to make some old-style phone calls from this locale. So you locate the man on the other end of the blower and give him a ride to this flop.
SCOTT [OC]: What?
KIRK: Find the man at the other end of the phone

[Transporter room]

KIRK [OC]: And transport him to these co-ordinates.

[Oxmyx's office]

KIRK: Can do, sweetheart?

[Transporter room]

SCOTT: Can do, Captain.

[Oxmyx's office]

SCOTT [OC]: Standing by.
KIRK: Now you. Get on the blower and call the other bosses.
OXMYX: I sure don't know what you think you're talking about.
KIRK: Get with it. I'm giving the orders here.
OXMYX: Hello. Hello?
KIRK: Scotty?
SCOTT [OC]: Scott here.
OXMYX: Guess who?
KIRK: Lock in and energise.
OXMYX: Yeah, you bet your life I've got a lot of nerve. What are you going to do about it?
TEPO: Coming over with my boys and we (realises he's not where he was a second earlier) Mother.
OXMYX: Hey, Captain, that ain't bad.
KIRK: Yeah.
SPOCK: I would advise you to keep dialing, Oxmyx.

Just because it's the first time we ( the audience) see it, doesn't mean it's the first time it's being used in universe

 

[shapeshifter]

And now, we have Fuller who wants to propose a new prequel, which is supposed to happen between Entreprise and TOS...

The proposals are over, it's happening. The Primeline was "closed for business" so for them to reopen it and green light the project should tell us something. For better or for worse they saw something in the pitch that sold them on his ideas. Hopefully more than just dollar signs. lol