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The Problems with Prequels...

Seven million dead is not a skirmish not today and definitely not on a peaceful Earth which we currently can't really imagine.
It was a lot of dead people but for the average human it was a single attack that only affected a small part of earth, the romulan war started only a few years later, it was a prolonged conflict with news of another ship destroyed coming regularly and because the crews came from all over the planet more people were emotionally affected.


I'm still looking forward to Discovery but this is something I typed up elsewhere one time. So don't read anymore into this than benign poking fun...

How Prequels Work:

Person: "What are you up to these days?"

Me: "Here's what I did back in 1996."

Person: "Yeah, but what are you doing now?"

Me: "Well... um... skipping ahead, here's what I would've done in 2006 if things had gone differently."

Person: "Okay, but... "

Me: "Here's what I actually did in 2006. This is a story I never told you about before."

Person: "But what are you doing now?! In 2016?!"

Me: "Who wants to talk about that?"

Person: "I do!"

Me: "But look! Here's how this thing from 2006 ties into when we first met."
But unlike real life a fictional franchise doesn't have a fixed "now", what's past, present and future in Star Trek is relative. Your analogy only works if Discovery has a framing story set in the 24th century that's portrayed as the present and we get extensive flashbacks.
 
If Berman actually knew about TOS and watched it, Maybe ENT would have been better so he knew what he was doing instead of doing Second rate TNG in the 22nd Century.
 
If Berman actually knew about TOS and watched it, Maybe ENT would have been better so he knew what he was doing instead of doing Second rate TNG in the 22nd Century.
I thought Braga was the guy who didn't watch TOS. Though that was back when he was on the TNG writing staff. IIRC he had seen TOS by the time he was doing ENT. I've never run across any statements by Berman about watching or not watching TOS. I do recall someone saying Roddenberry told the writing staff of TNG not to watch TOS.
 
I thought Braga was the guy who didn't watch TOS. Though that was back when he was on the TNG writing staff. IIRC he had seen TOS by the time he was doing ENT. I've never run across any statements by Berman about watching or not watching TOS. I do recall someone saying Roddenberry told the writing staff of TNG not to watch TOS.

I'm pretty sure Berman never saw TOS. I could be wrong. But in any case, it really seems like neither of them knew what they were doing when it came to ENT.
 
The thing with prequels is it sorta eliminates that sense of awe and wonder. With TNG you had this whole new area of space opened up because it was taking place a century after TOS. And VOY -had- the same potential by opening up the Delta Quadrant but granted they really didn't take advantage of that. IMO prequels eliminate that

Second where TNG or TOS could be about weekly adventures as explorers prequels have to cater to fans expectations of building up TOS so the series is less it's own thing and more of a piece of a larger franchise. You could see this happening with ENT in season four where it was less about the crew and more about familiar cultures, political intrigue, filling in backstory and connecting pieces for things that were to come. I enjoyed that but was hoping to get back to basics and more of a TOS/TNG approach at least at the beginning with interesting standalones and less about the macro level stuff

I
 
The thing with prequels is it sorta eliminates that sense of awe and wonder. With TNG you had this whole new area of space opened up because it was taking place a century after TOS.
I

The reason they're doing prequels is because neither they, nor the audience, is interested in watching another show where nothing is really different except the ship, the uniforms and how stuff looks and that's it. TNG did not depict the future of the original show. It was the same show with some superficial visual changes in costumes,and tech, but not enough for me to buy in 1987. I remember thinking "nothing's really changed, this doesn't feel like the future of the future" And what too many "move forward" people want is more of that inane shit. Look at how much the world changed from 1899 to 1999. An insane amount. If you live in the 24th century, where you have access to replicators, transporter tech, nanotechnology, knowledge and scientists from who knows how many worlds, the human species by the 25th century would not be recognizable to us. They sure as shit aren't just going to be wearing different colored shirts, have purple LCARS, super warp instead of regular warp, super shields instead of regular shields, super phasers instead of regular phasers, etc, etc.

Starfleet personnel would have genetically engineered or bio-mechanical bodies to help them survive in a variety of atmospheres with their communicators, phasers and tricorders built into them. They'd have nanocircuitry that would allow them to create hard light constructs from their hands or project phaser beams. They wouldn't need tricorders because their eyes would allow them to see like Geordi's eyes across a variety of spectrums, as well as mentally uplink with the ships living computer to scan the area around them. They would be able to store information on microscopic hard drives that coulc hold nearly unthinkable amounts of data.

That, or something like that, is what progress would look like in a century when your starting point is the tech of the 24th century. THAT is the specific reason B&B went backwards. They saw how many changes happened not only in the last century, but just in the time from when TNG premiered to the end of VOY and realized that they couldn't just keep changing superficial bullshit but nothing else.

Just in the last fifteen years technology and how we use it on a day to day basis has changed drastically. A society far more dependent on tech would be changing tech and how they use it even faster. B&B understood this. They understood that humans would change in such a way that they would appear magical or superpowered to us. Modern audiences, watching tech changes at amazing speed in the real world would no longer buy that that isn't happening in a technological wonderland like the 24th century. So if you're wondering why they've been going backwards, that's the reason.

They created ENT to move it closer back to our time in order to give us more relatable characters. Their execution was shit, but the idea was sound.
 
Strictly speaking all the technology of TNG is already in place in TOS. Warp drive? Check. Phasers? Check. Transporter? Check. Shields? Check. Talk to the computer? Check. The only difference is the holodeck. But that's not enough of a difference.

The series, except for DS9, are relatively self-contained. TNG doesn't really have anything to do with TOS. VOY doesn't have anything to do with TNG, except for sharing Q. Barclay is another link between TNG and VOY, but he could've been a new character on VOY even if TNG never existed. A guy from the Alpha Quadrant trying to get Voyager home. ENT had nothing to do with TOS (and TNG) until the fourth season, except for the one episode with the Borg.

Nothing in ENT hooks up with TOS for about 100 years. Same as nothing in TOS hooking up with TNG for about 100 years. Lots of races in TOS aren't seen again in TNG. VOY is in the opposite of end of the galaxy even though it's set in the same timeframe as TNG/DS9. With TNG and DS9, they only overlap for two seasons.

So, Discovery is in one neck of the woods and TOS -- whether it's during "The Cage" or the actual series itself -- can be in another neck of the woods. The relationship Discovery has with TOS will probably be the same as DS9 had with TNG. The Enterprise is off somewhere else doing its own thing.
 
Strictly speaking all the technology of TNG is already in place in TOS. Warp drive? Check. Phasers? Check. Transporter? Check. Shields? Check. Talk to the computer? Check. The only difference is the holodeck. But that's not enough of a difference.
The NCC-1701 even had a holodeck! (Ok, Harry Kim, not a "holodeck" per se, but a holographic "recreation room"; Harry obviously never saw TAS or read The Making Of Star Trek!) And "food synthesizers" instead of "replicators." Now, whether a ship that's less "top of the line, pride of the fleet" will be so well-equipped a decade earlier may be another matter.

The thing with prequels is it sorta eliminates that sense of awe and wonder. With TNG you had this whole new area of space opened up because it was taking place a century after TOS. And VOY -had- the same potential by opening up the Delta Quadrant but granted they really didn't take advantage of that. IMO prequels eliminate that
Do you have any idea how huge space is? (And it would actually be less explored a hundred years before TNG.) There is plenty of room for the new and unknown in any era. Granted, some measure of care does need to be taken not to outright contradict what is known from previous productions, at least not to an extent that detracts from rather than enhances the drama, but more often than not there's considerably more leeway there than one might think, if thinking narrowly. I doubt very much that this show will be devoid of any sense of awe and wonder.

Second where TNG or TOS could be about weekly adventures as explorers prequels have to cater to fans expectations of building up TOS
I have not seen any indication that the point of this show is going to be directly setting up TOS. I have a feeling it may actually be more about casting the period in a different light than TOS did. Fans always have expectations, which differ from fan to fan, but as to how much any will be catered to, that remains to be seen. I for one hope for a show that challenges our expectations, perhaps even subverts them. Here's hoping...
 
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Yep - look at the small white dot on this picture - which is marked by a Federation emblem:



All of TOS, TNG, DS9 and ENT take place within that dot.

It contains the entire Klingon, Romulan, Tholian, Breen and Cardassian Empires.

The fainter dotted lines probably are where unmanned probes have visited.

The Milky Way galaxy is vast, and even if the Federation explored 400 solar systems per year, it would take 1,000,000,000 years to explore them all.

The sense of space being 'new' comes more from the ability of the writers, than from logistics.

Here is a magnified version of the Star Charts 1500 light-year "Known Space":

GWisAjY.jpg
 
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Anyone noticed this inconsistency?

In season 1 the Andorians don't even know about transporter technology but by season 4 they have site to site transporters which at that point are still nearly 200 years in starfleet's future!
 
Are you referring to an Andorian calling Reed's transporter strike team "some kind of energy fluctuation"? Because obviously there are many different ways of interpreting that comment. For example, that he just didn't recognise Earth transporter technology, and just saw it as an energy reading.
 
Are you referring to an Andorian calling Reed's transporter strike team "some kind of energy fluctuation"? Because obviously there are many different ways of interpreting that comment. For example, that he just didn't recognise Earth transporter technology, and just saw it as an energy reading.

It's obvious that they never imagined that people would be beaming in and they would have had they been familiar with transporter technology.

And since site to site transporters were 200 years in Archer's future they would have had devices to PREVENT people from beaming in. They did not.
 
Yeah, it's just that you presented it very confidently - which is why grendelsbayne found it strange - even the Star Trek: Star Charts image I posted isn't canon - even though it's from an officially licensed product.

For a really really good, really really interesting overview of what we know about Star Trek distances, check out this site (which is amazing):

Star Trek Cartography

And this thread, which is less amazing, but relevent - it also quotes Christopher Bennet, a Pocket Books Trek writer:

The Size of the Federation in Star Trek: Discovery
 
To quote a piece:

Theory of a large Federation

Thesis: The Federations has an extension of almost ten thousand light years..

- Star Trek Encyclopedia (text) 10000 ly
- Star Trek: First Contact (quote) 8000 ly
- [TNG] The Chase (map) more than 10000 ly
- Numbered sectors belonging to the Federation 3000 ly or more
- Position of real stars 2000 ly or more
- Situational relations to locations outside the Federation 5000 ly or more

Conclusion: The theory of a large Federation can't be ignored for the mere reason that it is directly proven by the Star Trek Encyclopedia and Star Trek: First Contact. It is true that there is almost no on screen support (only in The Next Generation), however, some special aspects of the Star Trek universe underpin this theory.

Theory of a small Federation

Thesis: The Federation territory has an extension of a few hundred light years, possibly even less than hundred light years.

- [DS9] In the Hands of the Prophets (map) about 200 ly
- [DS9] The Way of the Warrior (quote) 200-500 ly
- [DS9] Trials and Tribble-ations (quote) 200 ly
- [DS9] The Visitor (quote) hundreds of light years
- [DS9] Valiant (calculation) 100-200 ly
- Rational considerations 500 ly at maximum

Conclusion: Especially the DS9 universe is mainly based on a only few hundred light years large Federation, but also rational considerations in view of the government of such a large empire and the voyages throughout the entire Federation, that were shown in all episodes and movies, support these theory.

8. Solution of the size problem by a synthesis of both theories

Apparently, we now have two theories for the size of the Federation, both supported by a considerable number of aspects and which both can't be disregarded without further considerations: after all, the 8000 ly large Federation has been officially confirmed, and the whole DS9 universe is based on a small Federation, that would collapse like a house of cards if the distances between the core planets of all important empires were longer than 100 ly.

Because both theories consequently have a right to exist, there is no point in the further search for the ultimate proof for the one or the other theory; instead, a unification of both has to be considered, although this seems to be impossible at the first glance.

However, the solution, which has been mentioned briefly several times in the course of the argumentation, is surprisingly simple and on closer examination, it can be easily derived from one of the apparently most persuasive proofs for the theory of a large federation:

Star Trek: First Contact

"The Federation consists of 150 planets, spread over 8000 ly"

With this quote of Captain Picard, the extension of the Federation territory is fixed to the 10000 ly suggested by the Encyclopedia, that is incontrovertible.

However, one should pay attention to the tricky wording, which does not explicitly demand a Federation territory of several thousand light years in the end. Instead, the spatial distribution of the planets over a region with a diameter/length/width/height of 8000 ly is mentioned. This finally leads to the idea that the Federation territory, where quite a lot non-aligned planets like Antede or Antica are located and that therefore naturally must have numerous "holes", not only resembles a Swiss cheese - even then the territory would still be far too large to facilitate the short distances seen in ST DS9 - but is distributed over this area in several fragments - what eventually corresponds to a synthesis of both competing theories, which shall be elaborated in the next paragraph.

How the quote from Star Trek: First Contact shows, the central idea of the new theorie does not concern the maximum extension of the Federation - indeed, this is completely peripheral -, but refers to its inner structure. The Federation must not simply be decentralized (that is already a basic criteria for every interstellar alliance that exceeds a size of several dozen light years - otherwise, the political order would not be maintainable), but has to have a polycentrical structure with differing hierarchy.

wsisx4F.jpg


That means: on the one hand, there is a core region of the Federation that is only few hundred light years or even less than hundred light years large, where all core planets (Earth, Alpha Centauri, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar) are situated. This area is restricted by the five adjoining powers and has not significantly changed its size for hundred or more years. In the relatively small core region, the whole action of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine takes place, what explains the short distances and travelling times in this series as well as the huge ship fleets that operate in a pretty small volume.

On the other hand, the Federation also extends outside the space taken up by the "Core Federation" and the five other empires far into deep space - within a region with just the considered diameter of 8000 ly. Here, there are several single planets settled by the Federation, but the area is primarily dominated by agglomerations or concentrations of Federation planets that are far more extensive in size and population and which form autonomous "fragments" of the Federation each. Examples for such Federation fragments, which are detached from the core region and completely self-sufficient with an own administration and defense, are the regions around Deneb, Antares and Rigel - just those stars which there mentioned as "boundary stars" of the Federation territory with regard to the theory of a large Federation. This wide-ranging and all in all more sparsely populated Federation region was explored by the Enterprise-D within seven years. On the one hand, the Enterprise could travel through the vastness unknown space between the different core regions without encountering large fleets of the Federation, and on the other hand, she could fly to the single "fragments" - mainly the core region, but also the Denebian region (in the first year) and the Rigel region (near Mintaka, in year five)

We have reached the point where of course the legitimate question arise how this theory can be conclusively proven. Basically, the plausibility and logic supports this solution of the Federation size problem, if we consider the political structure of the Federation, Starfleet's mission and the general state development in deep space (even though this point has not been empirically proven yet). At any rate, we cannot compare interstellar planetary alliances with international alliances, how Rick Sternbach (who has quasi laid the foundation for this theory with his own Federation+colonies thesis) has constantly remarked. From a general point of view, space actually is a single, homogenous, politically neutral zone, since 99.9% are vacuum. Only in extremely long distances - within the Milky Way every 1pc on average, there is a point that can be claimed at all, and in still longer distances there is a class M planet, which is inhabitable and only therefore relevant for a interstellar empire.

In addition, the Federation isn't an empire like the Romulan Star Empire or the Klingon Empire, but a loose alliance of planets with any spatial position, which fulfill certain criteria. Consequently, the possibility of a compact, clearly isolated region, how it is the case with a empire based on conquest and subjugation, is not given from the very beginning, but a) a certain distance of the planets and b) a very large spatial volume, in which these planets are scattered, is forced.

By the probable historical development of the Federation in view of Starfleet's mission, the synthesis of both theories is underpinned: Starfleet was founded in the 22nd century with the maxim to explore unknown regions, to seek out new life and to boldly go where no one has gone before. Therefore, Starfleet has specifically explored deep space at this "pioneer time" and surveyed especially the scientifically interesting regions near Rigel, Rigel, even the border of the Galaxy and set up Federation outposts at this far away locations. On the other hand, while exploring deep space Starfleet surely has also discovered populated planets already fulfilling the membership criteria of the Federation, which were then admitted to the planetary alliance. In both cases, the Federation was extended at certain, single points, without systematically exploring the region near Earth - planet for planet. This was only done in the 23rd century, the "settlement period", what is proven by the discovery of numerous new civilizations only a few dozen light years away from Earth during the five year missions of the Enterprise. Simultaneously, the more significant outposts that were too far away from the Federation for a direct connection, were extended and and further planets were settled near the core planets, for instance Antares or Rigel. While the central core region of the Federation grow together to a large extent, because of their long distances these regions remained self-contained - the described "fragments" of the Federation arose.

VULcNmb.jpg


However, plausibility, logic and realism are not the sole arguments by any means, which support this new theory. In the end, all arguments which were mentioned with regard to the two apparently opposing theories, do also apply to the synthesis of both theories: as already mentioned, there is no reason that the diverse indications for the Federations size in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine always applied merely to the core region, which in the end is the main part of the Federation. In contrast, in ST:TNG, the non-aligned space between the Federation and the other Federation regions were explored.

With the survey of these extensive, several thousand light years large regions by the Enterprise-D and numerous other deep space vessels, the large numbers of the sector system are understandable: with a mere chronological designation of newly discovered sectors, already countless regions outside the core region were explored and numbered, when the new sectors in the Alpha Quadrant joined the Federation, what then results in numbers in the range of 21000 near Cardassian space.

Because stars like Barzan, Rigel, Antares and Deneb do not belong to the core region of the Federation, the transgalactic situational relations and the situation of real stars does not contradict with the other arguments concerning the Federation size any longer. But forming a coherent alliance is made much more difficult due to the technical limitations of warp propulsion (maximum sustainable speed still warp 6) and of subspace radio (interstellar only realizable with subspace relay stations every 22.65 ly). Basically, one has to assume that the regions are completely self-contained concerning supply and defense, proven by the situation of important fleet yards near Antares IV and Rigel. Because of the self-organization, there is no need for defense and support. However, also a political independence to a large extent cannot be prevented, but because the Federation isn't an empire and all really important planets are concentrated within the central core region, a political connection between the outer regions and the core regions is actually not necessary. These regions do mostly profit from the Federation membership - for example due to the opportunity to set up own ship yards according to the pattern of the Federation and to form own tactical fleets within Starfleet (what leads to the described situation, that "the left hand of Starfleet does not know of the actions of the right hand"), while raw material deliveries (e.g. Dilithium from the mines of Rigel XII) or technology transfers (with the construction of starships in the yards of the outer regions and the following re-assignation and transportation to a yard in the core region) are only necessary to a low extent.

In the end, the Federation membership mainly refers to the belief in common values - freedom, legal protection, protection of the dignity of all life forms and a common purpose of life - in order to attempt to advance the own existence as well as the rest of the Federation, irrespective how far the rest of the "large family" is away.​
 
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Yeah, it's just that you presented it very confidently - which is why grendelsbayne found it strange - even the Star Trek: Star Charts image I posted isn't canon - even though it's from an officially licensed product.

Oh no, that wasn't my intention at all. Hence my very hesitant "Um". :lol:

By the way, my map…
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/.a/6a00d8341bf7f753ef01156f8a4a6d970c-600wi
…is also from an officially licensed product, albeit an older one, the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Journal published way back in 1992.

There is also this even older star map:
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/sftm/02-07-00.jpg
from the Star Trek: Star Fleet Technical Manual published way way back in 1975! (Now I've really revealed my age! :lol:) It was drawn by Franz Joseph, it was authorized by Gene Roddenberry himself, and was was used as a source and reference in the TOS movies!

But like I said, who's arguing about "fan-made" maps? :beer:
 
Ah sorry, misunderstanding :)

I generally favor a very small federation of about 200 light years at it's core, with a few outlying research outposts to justify Picard's quote about 8000 light years - solves both problems in one swoop lol. Another reason I like this personally, is that Star Trek 'feels' quite small in scale compared to Star Wars or Foundation or Warhammer 40,000 - much more like Mass Effect or Babylon 5 - so a small Federation feels quite nice to me, not inhumanly vast - like you can often hear characters talking about individual stars as if they are familiar. I made a couple of fan maps of my own that try to capture that spirit by showing a scattering of worlds hanging in a lonely void:

ZXRNfL7.jpg


That one uses the same rough scale as the Star Trek: Star Charts, rather than the scale of Star Trek Cartography. I also included some fan favorite non-canon inclusions from the Interplay and Microprose games, such as the Chodak.

KhPBSBY.jpg


That one uses the scales from Star Trek Cartography, so that even distant stars like Deneb are within the Federation - but keeps the main core to about 200 light years, so that again, both a large and small Federation fit together. In the smaller maps, people just reason that Deneb in Star Trek refers to a separate star.
 
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