The positive Voyager thread: What was good with the series?

[Nightdiamond]

Can we discuss if VOY discussed AI well within series? If not, feels it needs a separate thread.

It's more a discussion of individuality (Seven) and sentience (the EMH) than it is "AI". Of course, Voyager (and many other ST series) discussed both of these, but it's become borderline off topic, I agree.

It got to a point where Voyager came to a region in space where holograms were common. One episode had it where a ship had a hologram that the crew used as a servant. They mistreated it or verbally abused it and eventually he had a nervous breakdown and killed the crew. I saw it TV on a few days ago.

So apparently this A.I had the ability to respond emotionally to how it was treated and developed
opinions about it. Got tired of it and killed the whole crew and from then on hated organic lifeforms.

This is one of the positive things about Voyager episodes because it had some interesting ideas,
but at the same time it could show the dumbest, silliest things. It would just take things too far, lol.

The hologram was breathing heavily, looked paled and had blood shot eyes. It looked stressed. Why would a program made of light and programs look stressed?

It was an example of how the show took ideas wayyy to far.

 

[Prax]

I think the serial killer hologram wasn't upset with his masters' treatment so much as he had a malfunction in his programming that made him so obsessed with the ship being clean that "organics," with all their bacteria, became disgusting to him.

That hologram freaked me out and cemented my view that self aware holograms, and all the stuff that developed with them or the doctor in later seasons would be a terrible idea for humanity. They are ruthless terminators and need to be destroyed!

 

[Makarov]

I felt they really explored the EMH concept very well, even surpassing what TNG did with Data. I loved the mobile emitter concept and how it was integrated into some stories

 

[Discofan]

As usual, you misunderstood the information, missed the point, and filled the gaps with illogical nonsense. If two persons receive the same "inputs" and still become entirely unique individuals, then those "inputs", random or otherwise, aren't primary causal factors associated with individuality.

"What's makes us "unique" is that we get billions of inputs from millions of nerve endings and that can't possibly be duplicated." is a false statement, because we become individuals regardless of "inputs".

"If a program gets random inputs (like we do), it will be impossible to have two programs behaving the exact same way and that's your individuality right there!" is another false statement, because a programmer can make the program do whatever he wants it to do, which includes filtering and otherwise manipulating "inputs" to achieve a particular goal. The goal might be to have every instance of the program behave exactly the same way.

Just the professional opinion of a 25+ year computer scientist.

You may be a computer hack... (and I have a hard time believing that you're even that) but that doesn't make you a scientist of humanity. If you think that two people can get the same inputs, it only means that you haven't given the subject serious thought. How can two different people get the same inputs? We receive millions of inputs in a single second. Even if two people are in the same room witnessing the same event, they'll see this event from different angles, they won't get the same inputs!!! So if it's impossible for a single event, it's definitely even more impossible for a lifetime.

So you take something impossible and then use it to deduce that "inputs", aren't primary causal factors associated with individuality. I mean, seriously!!!

I don't dispute that a programmer can make a program do whatever he wants but if the program is so simple that a programmer can predict everything it does and even outsmart it then it has nothing to do with A.I., it's just second rate grandad programming.

Take AlphaZero for example. It's a program that started with the rules of chess and became world champion in a matter of hours!! Are you alleging that its programmer knows exactly what it does? Even the human world chess champion can't beat it, let alone the programmer who's likely a great deal weaker!!

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think the serial killer hologram wasn't upset with his masters' treatment so much as he had a malfunction in his programming that made him so obsessed with the ship being clean that "organics," with all their bacteria, became disgusting to him.

That hologram freaked me out and cemented my view that self aware holograms, and all the stuff that developed with them or the doctor in later seasons would be a terrible idea for humanity. They are ruthless terminators and need to be destroyed!

He was a creepy hologram. And his rant about how disgusting organics were was also creepy.
Throughout the episode I was wondering why Belanna didn't make sure everything was shut off, considering he could disappear or reappear at will.

The stressed and deranged out look added to his creepiness, the actor did a great job. The minor nit with it is it's a program with no biological organs so why should it look deranged?

It's not really something you notice when you first watch it, but later on, if you decide to think about it, you do see how silly it is.

 

[Discofan]

You have to give it to the Voyager writers that they made an interesting exploration of the subject of sentient holograms. of course, some things don't make sense, others are completely ridiculous but that's par for the course for Star Trek in general. I mean Kirk et al. confusing and defeating robots by behaving erratically is an apex of ridiculousness and painful to watch (not as painful as "Plato's..." or "The Children..." but still).

 

[Prax]

Let's face it, the EMH, Moriarty, and sentient, self aware holograms are bad news. The EMH almost gets B'elanna killed by the germophobic, serial killer hologram(because he wants to help a fellow "photonic"), he almost gets the crew killed by his carelessness with the "macrovirus," he almost gets the crew, ship, and a whole civilization killed because he wants to help a fellow "AI" weapon of mass destruction, he slanders(or is it "libels"? Since holonovels are considered "writing") his whole crew across the entire Federation with his "Photons Be Free" nonsense. He almost gets B'elanna, and/or the crew killed again because he wants to help "fellow photonics" in a war with the Hirogen. Then he almost leaves the crew stranded to die in space because in his faulty logic, "Voyager can survive without a Warp core, but not with its captain." Huh? Most of these cases have the doctor straight up being insubordinate, or in some cases, committing mutiny. The guy is out of control, as is every other self aware hologram we meet.

 

[jmidnight_99]

You may be a computer hack... (and I have a hard time believing that you're even that) but that doesn't make you a scientist of humanity. If you think that two people can get the same inputs, it only means that you haven't given the subject serious thought. How can two different people get the same inputs? We receive millions of inputs in a single second. Even if two people are in the same room witnessing the same event, they'll see this event from different angles, they won't get the same inputs!!! So if it's impossible for a single event, it's definitely even more impossible for a lifetime.

So you take something impossible and then use it to deduce that "inputs", aren't primary causal factors associated with individuality. I mean, seriously!!!

I don't dispute that a programmer can make a program do whatever he wants but if the program is so simple that a programmer can predict everything it does and even outsmart it then it has nothing to do with A.I., it's just second rate grandad programming.

Take AlphaZero for example. It's a program that started with the rules of chess and became world champion in a matter of hours!! Are you alleging that its programmer knows exactly what it does? Even the human world chess champion can't beat it, let alone the programmer who's likely a great deal weaker!!

I'm a computer scientist, not a hack. You can use Wikipedia to learn what "Scientist" means, and what scientists do. It's really not necessary to argumentatively explain your lay understanding of computer science to me. Also, there are many sites that exercises that can help one improve one's logic and reasoning skills.

Tell me something, do you think "AlphaZero" knows that it's playing chess?

 

[jmidnight_99]

It got to a point where Voyager came to a region in space where holograms were common. One episode had it where a ship had a hologram that the crew used as a servant. They mistreated it or verbally abused it and eventually he had a nervous breakdown and killed the crew. I saw it TV on a few days ago.

So apparently this A.I had the ability to respond emotionally to how it was treated and developed
opinions about it. Got tired of it and killed the whole crew and from then on hated organic lifeforms.

This is one of the positive things about Voyager episodes because it had some interesting ideas,
but at the same time it could show the dumbest, silliest things. It would just take things too far, lol.

The hologram was breathing heavily, looked paled and had blood shot eyes. It looked stressed. Why would a program made of light and programs look stressed?

It was an example of how the show took ideas wayyy to far.

Well, not necessarily. I would suppose that holograms were created to emulate humans (humanoids), and would have all of the characteristics of that species. What confuses me is: The EMH was obviously emotional and reacted to emotions, but that that couldn't be programmed into Data.

 

[Prax]

The doctor was programmed with the emotions and personality of his creator.

Data's creator made an android before him with emotions, and he was a psychopath, so the creator made data. He later created another android with emotions, and created emotions for data, but he didn't "install" them until the films

 

[GlennSTL]

You guys really have me now wanting to see the “ mad hologram” episode discussed by several posters above. What season and episode is this? Thanks very much!

 

[Farscape One]

"REVULSION", season 4. B story is Kim works alongside Seven to build Astrometrics.

 

[Prax]

Ah, famous for "Do you wish to copulate with me, ensign?" I believe

 

[Discofan]

...

Tell me something, do you think "AlphaZero" knows that it's playing chess?

I never said that Alphazero was self-aware or even implied it or even implied that self-awareness of programs was in the offing. If you had read my posts carefully like you should have, given the congruity (or lack thereof) of your responses, you would know that. Your question is simply irrelevant.


Edited out some expressions that could be interpreted the wrong way.

 

[Prax]

Edited out some expressions that could be interpreted the wrong way.

kudos to you! We should all endeavor to be as cordial as possible, even in arguments.

 

[Akiraprise]

kudos to you! We should all endeavor to be as cordial as possible, even in arguments.

Indeed!

 

[Discofan]

Ah, famous for "Do you wish to copulate with me, ensign?" I believe

And Harry Kim getting all panicky and saying: "No NO NOOOO!!!!".

 

[jmidnight_99]

I never said that Alphazero was self-aware or even implied it or even implied that self-awareness of programs was in the offing. If you had read my posts carefully like you should have, given the congruity (or lack thereof) of your responses, you would know that. Your question is simply irrelevant.

Edited out some expressions that could be interpreted the wrong way.

Thanks. Did you check out the site I recommended?

 

[jmidnight_99]

The doctor was programmed with the emotions and personality of his creator.

Data's creator made an android before him with emotions, and he was a psychopath, so the creator made data. He later created another android with emotions, and created emotions for data, but he didn't "install" them until the films

Oh, I know that, but in TNG it was such a big deal that Data wasn't a "machine", blah blah... but the EMH was all presumably "self-aware" and had "emotions" out of the box. I think the point I was making got lost in the inevitable distractions, but do you think these "life" forms actually "felt" anything?

The EMH was one of the standout characters on Voy. It's hard to wrap one's head around exactly what he was.

 

[jmidnight_99]

He was a creepy hologram. And his rant about how disgusting organics were was also creepy.
Throughout the episode I was wondering why Belanna didn't make sure everything was shut off, considering he could disappear or reappear at will. The stressed and deranged out look added to his creepiness, the actor did a great job. The minor nit with it is it's a program with no biological organs so why should it look deranged? It's not really something you notice when you first watch it, but later on, if you decide to think about it, you do see how silly it is.

I don't usually rewatch that episode. Not because of the story, but the actor they picked to play the deranged hologram just kind of weirds me out.

Let's face it, the EMH, Moriarty, and sentient, self aware holograms are bad news. The EMH almost gets B'elanna killed by the germophobic, serial killer hologram(because he wants to help a fellow "photonic"), he almost gets the crew killed by his carelessness with the "macrovirus," he almost gets the crew, ship, and a whole civilization killed because he wants to help a fellow "AI" weapon of mass destruction, he slanders(or is it "libels"? Since holonovels are considered "writing") his whole crew across the entire Federation with his "Photons Be Free" nonsense. He almost gets B'elanna, and/or the crew killed again because he wants to help "fellow photonics" in a war with the Hirogen. Then he almost leaves the crew stranded to die in space because in his faulty logic, "Voyager can survive without a Warp core, but not with its captain." Huh? Most of these cases have the doctor straight up being insubordinate, or in some cases, committing mutiny. The guy is out of control, as is every other self aware hologram we meet.

Yeah, you're right. They suck. At least it isn't murder when you shut them off.