The Picard Paradox

[Dukhat]

By the way, I completely agree with you, although its not a popular one. If it was time travel, the Kelvin movies absolutely wiped out the prime universe - so unless it was an adjacent universe instead, then one must assume that there is an unseen "closing" chapter to the Kelvinverse, most likely a Very Old Spock stopping the destruction of Romulus on the second time around, negating Nero's time travel to begin with, and snapping the Universe back to Prime.

If the Kelvin universe wiped out the prime universe, then Star Trek: Picard wouldn’t exist.

 

[Longinus]

If the Kelvin universe wiped out the prime universe, then Star Trek: Picard wouldn’t exist.

Yes it would, but Picard would be played by Vin Diesel.

 

[Phoenix219]

The problem for some fans is that even though Kurtzman and Orci were 100% clear their intent was not to erase the original timelines through the creation of the Kelvin timeline, canon purists do not believe that declarations of authorial intent matter, only what is seen onscreen. And traditionally, how time travel has worked in Trek is that any changes to the past rewrite the entire timeline, rather than cause a new timeline to split off.

Of course, this is just how TL usually works (like in The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact, Children of Time, the Temporal Cold War, etc). There are examples, like Parallels where we have shifted through alternate timelines without destruction of the original timeline. There's also examples of time travel as an apparent closed loop (most of DS9's use of time travel, Time's Arrow, apparently Star Trek IV, etc).

I never got the idea that STIV was a closed loop, only that they gave the creator of transparent aluminum his own creation years before he should have come up with it, but nothing that would drastically alter history on a major scale. The eyeglasses are just a temporal duplicate and the original is still somewhere in the world of 1986 as well.

I also remember reading 10 years ago or so, that the Kelvin being blown up was originally supposed to be a TOS Connie, and that it was supposed to signify that the old is gone, and this is the new - its not your daddy's star trek, etc, in advertising, but that the intent to parallel rather then replace was later face-saving by the producers, to calm down disgruntled old school fans. I may have conflated parts of this in my head, and can't find original sources, but that was always the impression I got from the order and timing of events back when it was happening. Of course, I was only a lurker then, so no way to know for sure.

 

[Tuskin38]

I never got the idea that STIV was a closed loop, only that they gave the creator of transparent aluminum his own creation years before he should have come up with it, but nothing that would drastically alter history on a major scale. The eyeglasses are just a temporal duplicate and the original is still somewhere in the world of 1986 as well.

I also remember reading 10 years ago or so, that the Kelvin being blown up was originally supposed to be a TOS Connie, and that it was supposed to signify that the old is gone, and this is the new - its not your daddy's star trek, etc, in advertising, but that the intent to parallel rather then replace was later face-saving by the producers, to calm down disgruntled old school fans. I may have conflated parts of this in my head, and can't find original sources, but that was always the impression I got from the order and timing of events back when it was happening. Of course, I was only a lurker then, so no way to know for sure.

Stop using in universe reasoning and consider authorial intent.

 

[Phoenix219]

If the Kelvin universe wiped out the prime universe, then Star Trek: Picard wouldn’t exist.

I'm guessing we just haven't seen the movie/series that resets it back to Prime - of course, if it was a pre-existing alternate Universe, the Kelvin universe wouldn't affect Picard at all.

So we are seeing Picard prematurely - there will be a capper for the Kelvin eventually, bringing Picard back into continuity, or we are watching a defunct time line that no longer exists. *shrug*

 

[Phoenix219]

Stop using in universe reasoning and consider authorial intent.

Considering the number of authors over the last 50 years, and the constantly changing intent, I would argue that only what is shown on the screen is what actually matters.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I don't think the movie itself specified. Characters assumed what was going on, of course - but would they really know the difference between an alternate universe and alternate timeline? They just knew things had been changed. I don't think the mechanism for time travel really matters, as a string of casual events would not care what external apparatus would use IMO - thats why I think the red matter drilling into an alternate universe idea would make much more sense, unless there is an unseen closing chapter for the Kelvin.

Well the irony is that a parallel timeline splitting from an existing one with every action that happens is actually a theory on how a Multiverse would work so it's a distinction without a difference.

For an example, it's how time travel works in Marvel comics. Unless you use magic or nonsensium, if you were an X-man who went back in time and saved Senator Kelly then if you returned to the future--it would still be s*** and controlled by Sentinels.

However, THAT timeline you just altered would have an uncertain future.

This is another theory about how real-life paradoxes would be avoided.

So, it's a case of quantum physicists having way too much ****ing time on their hands.

 

[Tuskin38]

Considering the number of authors over the last 50 years, and the constantly changing intent, I would argue that only what is shown on the screen is what actually matters.

Well what's shown on screen contradicts itself every week.
The Prime universe hasn't been altered or wiped out by the events in ST09. That is fact. CBS still producing and publishing content in the prime universe proves that.

I'm guessing we just haven't seen the movie/series that resets it back to Prime - of course, if it was a pre-existing alternate Universe, the Kelvin universe wouldn't affect Picard at all.

So we are seeing Picard prematurely - there will be a capper for the Kelvin eventually, bringing Picard back into continuity, or we are watching a defunct time line that no longer exists. *shrug*

That's never going to happen, it doesn't need to happen. Star Trek 09 is a completely separate timeline. The Prime timeline wasn't wiped out.

 

[Phoenix219]

Well what's shown on screen contradicts itself every week.
The Prime universe hasn't been altered or wiped out by the events in ST09. That is fact. CBS still producing and publishing content in the prime universe proves that.



That's never going to happen, it doesn't need to happen. Star Trek 09 is a completely separate timeline. The Prime timeline wasn't wiped out.

So then it is an always-existing tangent universe, definitively, via process of elimination/logical deduction.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes it would, but Picard would be played by Vin Diesel.

Finally.

 

[Ovation]

So then it is an always-existing tangent universe, definitively, via process of elimination/logical deduction.

No.

 

[Dukhat]

So then it is an always-existing tangent universe, definitively, via process of elimination/logical deduction.

Not sure if you’re just trying to be deliberately obtuse, but that is not correct either. Dialogue in Star Trek ‘09 flat-out states that the Kelvin timeline was created by Nero’s incursion in 2233. Why that is so hard for you to grasp, I have no idea.

 

[NCC-73515]

 

[Tosk]

Dialogue in Star Trek ‘09 flat-out states that the Kelvin timeline was created by Nero’s incursion in 2233.

To be fair, it's stated as character's theory based on limited facts.

 

[Phoenix219]

To be fair, it's stated as character's theory based on limited facts.

Was just about to post that.... so thank you, even if you are just playing devils advocate.

Back to the Future is *blatantly* talking about a timeline rewrite, or none of the plot would even be working, right down to the disappearing future and pictures and stuff as the rewrite cements.

I'm not convinced Parallels isn't talking about quantum possibilities instead of physical matter, and there is also no evidence that ANYTHING in Parallels was created via time travel, and not Mirror/Lazarus style universes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Burnham said that quantum signatures designate which universe that you are from.

Time travel does not, should not, change your quantum signature.

 

[Tosk]

You can also potentially identify someone's home universe based on their RNA.

 

[Lord Garth]

Uh-oh. If Star Trek 4 were ever made, it would cause some heads to explode.

 

[Tosk]

Why?

 

[Lord Garth]

Why?

"How can the Kelvin Timeline exist and the Prime Timeline exist at the same time?! Doesn't one overwrite the other?! How can you have Star Trek 4 and still have Discovery and Picard and Lower Decks and Section 31 and..."

Not that I believe any of that myself. I think they can exist parallel, but not everyone does it seems.