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The Pacing of Space Battles: Old vs. New

Stadi

Ensign
Newbie
I'm not here to debate about the full merits of the new Trek films in comparison to older Trek; I had my fill being angry about Star Trek and Into Darkness, and now I think any lingering anger about the new direction of the franchise is a bit tired sounding nowadays. You either like how things are or you don't, and everyone knows each others' arguments about why they love or hate it.

I've come to terms with what they were trying to do. I see now that it's way more of a reboot of the way the original show was in comparison to the later Berman era. There's plenty of Berma-era Trek to rewatch and enjoy. The brewery engine room was kind of weird at first, but now I accept that this is how things will be. That's all fine. I like the new films.

The only lingering thing that sometimes bothers me is the scaling and pacing of space battles. I think one of the things that set Trek apart from other science fiction franchises is how space battles were treated. Generally speaking, space combat is shown to be analogous to modern submarine warfare. Battles are slower paced, but with a very unique sense of tension and dread. The Wrath of Khan best exemplifies this (the newer films were supposedly most inspired by this film).

Space is terrifying. Spaceships are big, lumbering, semi-claustrophobic beasts that can spring hull breaches and explosions when the shields get too weak to repel incoming projectiles. Torpedoes flicker ominously as they trail towards their target. There's several seconds where all the captain can do is yell, "Brace for impact!" Combat is a back and forth, like a cosmic chess match, with ships hiding behind planetoids. In TWOK, there are lengthy moments where it seems everyone is bracing for the next phaser strike, sitting at their consoles in a state of dread.

When Sisko's old ship Saratoga gets critically damaged and the order is given to abandon ship, they have several free minutes (seems almost like ten minutes or more, maybe) to get everyone into escape pods. Sure, the Borg were probably occupied blowing up the other forty starships engaged in combat, but it gives you a sense that battles are much more methodical. In pre-2009 Trek, shipwide destruction can happen with only a few well-placed phaser or torpedo strikes.

Hopefully this makes a shred of sense. My question, then, is what kind of battles do you prefer? Do you prefer the newer, fast-paced Star Wars style combat? Or do you prefer the older, methodical, sub-style combat? I'm not interested in debating, again, the merits of the new films vs. the old films in a macro sense. This is just about the style of space combat you prefer.

For me, while I find the way the new films went about things exciting and visually stunning, I have to say, I miss a little of the charm Trek battles used to have. I feel like the slower, tension-filled combat of films like TWOK feels more, I don't know, realistic? It just feels like how real space battles would actually happen.

When everything is fast-paced explosions and eye candy, I feel like you lose a bit of tension in the process of speeding things up. Phaser hits simply become little water pistol pea shots that inflict miniscule damage unless you're firing a thousand phaser shots a minute like a Star Destroyer. Even in the Dominion War, DS9's huge fleet battles still gave you that sense of scale. Nothing really moved faster than it should. It still wasn't Star Wars. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge SW fan, but this was one thing that really set Trek apart.
 
My question, then, is what kind of battles do you prefer? Do you prefer the newer, fast-paced Star Wars style combat? Or do you prefer the older, methodical, sub-style combat?

I like both. I think both are cool in their own way.
 
My question, then, is what kind of battles do you prefer? Do you prefer the newer, fast-paced Star Wars style combat? Or do you prefer the older, methodical, sub-style combat?

I like both. I think both are cool in their own way.
There's definitely something to tons of ships soaring through a ridiculously overwrought fog of thousands of light beams crackling against shields. That's undeniable to me. I guess it's just whether you prefer apples or oranges.

Or if you like both. :)
 
I like fast-paced WWII dogfight type battles in Star Wars.

I like Master and Commander tall-ship style broadside battles in Star Trek.

I don't like one style transposed onto the other.
 
That's undeniable to me. I guess it's just whether you prefer apples or oranges.

Or if you like both. :)

I think Star Trek exists in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" area of pop culture. If it doesn't embrace new ways of doing things, people complain it is standing still. If it does embrace new ways of doing things, people complain that the creators are turning their backs on what came before.

It puts the creators in a bad position. Because no matter what they do, they are upsetting someone.
 
Yeah, The Powers That Be are completely screwed.

Too many diverging opinions on the direction of Trek without a whole lot of consensus. I feel like it's the product of having such a gargantuan continuity to pull from, with diehard fans of that continuity measuring in millions, and having to go boldly forward with new material that doesn't feel dated in an attempt to gather new fans while pleasing so many older ones at the same time.

So many fans out there want what essentially amounts to new episodes of the older shows, with similar structuring and dynamics. For me, at least, I have the old shows. There are a ridiculous amount of them, more than most franchises get. I can rewatch many of them over and over without running into boredom issues. Why do we need the same thing over and over? Trek isn't defined by kinds of space battles or engineering designs or the structure of the shows themselves. Trek is defined by ideas.

Sure, there's a valid point that the new films are less about ideas and more about action, but that's all fine to me. I'm over it, really. We have the old-style Trek shows. How many more variations on the same theme can we have before we really do get bored?

Oh, geez, here I am arguing about merits when I said I wouldn't. :p
 
I like fast-paced WWII dogfight type battles in Star Wars.

I like Master and Commander tall-ship style broadside battles in Star Trek.

I don't like one style transposed onto the other.

Totally understandable. Dogfights definitely fit Star Wars better. I just feel like both shows had their niche, and Trek adopted that style to pull SW fans in.

Now is that really a bad thing? I don't know. Like I said, I'm over it. I still like the new films. I hope the next film turns up the character moments a bit and turns down the combat a tad. We've had two fairly combat-centric, blindingly fast cut films in a row. Something new might be in order.
 
Totally understandable. Dogfights definitely fit Star Wars better. I just feel like both shows had their niche, and Trek adopted that style to pull SW fans in.

Whatever one thinks of the starship combat in the Abrams films. I think he has best captured the essence of warp speed in the new movies: it feels like this wild, barely controllable ride. Which would likely be the result of generating enough raw power to bend space and travel hundreds of times the speed of light.
 
Totally understandable. Dogfights definitely fit Star Wars better. I just feel like both shows had their niche, and Trek adopted that style to pull SW fans in.

Whatever one thinks of the starship combat in the Abrams films. I think he has best captured the essence of warp speed in the new movies: it feels like this wild, barely controllable ride. Which would likely be the result of generating enough raw power to bend space and travel hundreds of times the speed of light.

I agree! It practically feels like the nacelles are going to rip off the pylons every time the warp engines are engaged. I love how they kept Sulu's warp speed throttle control handle that was introduced in The Motion Picture, too.
 
I dislike effects-laden exterior sequences where I'm not sure what the point of view is from shot to shot.
 
I dislike effects-laden exterior sequences where I'm not sure what the point of view is from shot to shot.
I have the same problem with simple fistfights or chase scenes that give you no sense of orientation. First the camera is shooting from the front and to the left. Next shot two seconds later, it's a 180 angle shooting from behind and below. One second later, we're seeing it from the front and spinning to the left for a crash into a wall. You can't tell what's going on sometimes.
 
I fail to see a difference.

First of all, I think the "submarine" analogy is often over-stated. There are only a few examples of this throughout all of Trek, and the sub-maritime aspects only relate to the atmosphere. And in all these cases, some plot device needed in order to create said atmosphere, Mutara, being the most obvious example.

I've always seen Star Trek battles to be more like 18th century maritime battles: two pirate captains exchanging blows with cannon vollies as they pass each other in the night. Even in the submarine bits, this is inevitably the case. As in the aforementioned Mutara battle, while the first part is strait out of Run Silent, Run Deep, the weapon exchange is nothing submarine-like. Once Chekov starts playing with his joystick, it's all "Zee veapons be ready, Capteen."

156cuno.jpg


This style holds true for all phases of Trek. While it wasn't necessarily true for TOS, the stories didn't often call for space battles. The ones that did were limited by the technology, but it was definitely implied.

However, this "cannons at the ready" style started with TWOK as noted above and continued through the films and subsequent series, evolving with the technology. TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT each advancing the style. nuTrek is nothing but the next step in this evolution.

And when the Enterprise/Vengeance battle is reduced to its most basic element, it's just Spock and Khan loading his cannons to fire at the other guy next time he comes round.

There's really nothing "Star Wars" about it at all.
 
I've always wanted to see full-blown fighter action with Star Trek capital ships as part of the backdrop. We got a hint of that in the Dominion War; I also recall some unfinished PC game from the 90s in which the trailer had the TOS ready to square off against some pretty fearsome (re: not at all designed with a 60s aesthetic!) squadron of fighters. The juxtaposition of contrasts was neat, but I was also hoping to see a kind of battle that was just never shown in TOS, to see how Kirk and the Enterprise could handle such a situation.

With that said, there weren't really many space battle scenes in XII. Yes, tons of damage everywhere, but the Vengeance so badly outclassed the Enterprise that the latter never got to fire a shot. The Vengeance basically fired too quickly and too powerfully that any semblance of a space battle was over almost before it began. Pacing is almost too quick in that regard, but it's almost unavoidable -- would Marcus or Khan really go for a protracted fight just because they felt dramatic? No, one's a military man and the other's a mastermind; both would go for the kill ASAP.

On the other side, one of the most disappointing space battles to me of all time is Nemesis. It was just too drawn out and poorly paced (how many times can we hear that the shields are down to X per cent?), and without much emphasis on the crew, there wasn't a lot of emotional value added to the tension. Lots of pewpewpew to be sure, but nothing to really tie the viewer into the action, so there was no real concern or worry.

And then there's Generations, where there was implied to be a fairly decent space battle, but 90% of it was filmed TV-style; that is, just too much emphasis on the bridge and too much of the battle being narrated rather than shown, and against a much inferior foe.

Enough people have spoken about TWOK. I also quite like TUC, even though the Enterprise and later Excelsior existed only to get shot at. But the music, the length, the shots between space and bridge, the crescendo, the execution, et all really lent itself to some good pacing.

I'm convinced there's a way to strike the right balance for a perfectly good, dramatic, flashy space battle. But Trek seems to have a really hard time finding that balance. And the weird thing is, despite budgets and bigger SFX houses, the TV shows tended to have larger scale battles than the movies. DS9/VOY/ENT just had plenty more happening than GEN/INS/NEM/XI/XII.
 
It was DS9's Defiant zipping around and doing loop-the-loops which seems at odds with the majority of Trek to me. I saw that and thought, "Trekllennium Falcon". I thought the ships in the new movies were appropriately weighty and slow to react - like the Enterprise moving to avoiding debris over Vulcan. Massive starships, not jet fighters.

I'm forever grateful that they've ditched the nonsensical trope of exploding consoles and the more sensical but really rather boring trope of gradually decreasing shield percentages, and instead actually show damage being inflicted on the ship's lower levels.
 
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If there aren't shield percentages being counted down, then it isn't Star Trek!
 
I'm not a fan of the battle in TWOK or the slow methodical battles as these don't seem to match with all the modern technology available aboards the starships. They were I think just a reflection of the cold war and submarine time period.
 
Trouble is that it is difficult to make an exciting semi-realistic space battle in a fast passed TV show or movie. Mostly because the combatants should be several tens of thousands if not several hundred thousands kilometers from each other. Well out of the ability to see them both on screen at the same time. Either they would trade blows at one light second distances or do high speed warp passes of each other with only some visuals for the audience aside from internal damages (somewhat like TOS battles where you couldn't really see the enemy, just some flashes of lights and an explosion here and there).

People, today, expect to see ship to ship combat in really close and personal. Mass exchanges of weaponry. It is a fleet fight, they expect ships in the background be explode from time to time, but the hero ship just go along with the battle as drame provides. If it is a one on one, fight, it is expected to take at least a little time for dialogue and some plot to happen, rather than a simple unleashing of the weapons and a quick resolutions that the power of the weaponry would actually warrant.
 
Top Trek space battles:

Enterprise vs Reliant 1 & 2
Vengeance vs Enterprise
Narada vs Kelvin
Enterprise vs Romulan BoP

Worst battles:

Enterprise-E vs Scimitar
<insert any of the DS9 and VOY skirmishes of the week>
 
The Vengeance battle was over way too quickly, that scene would have benefitted enormously with the Enterprise fighting back whilst still at warp, and continuing to fight afterwards. Instead all we got were a couple of scenes where I couldn't even figure out what was going on. At least the Kelvin vs Narada you could see the action properly, even though the camera was twirling about.

Couldn't disagree more about the worst one, I think that's joint best with the reliant battles, it's got more or less everything I look for in a Trek space battle, and gets the balance right between SW style dogfights and lumbering starships.
 
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