The OFFICIAL STNG-R general discussion thread!
- Thread starter jefferiestubes8
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CaptainJack
Lieutenant Commander
I'm not sure I'd go as far as calling it horrendous, because you need to see it in context: They were one of first shows to go all-CG, and they had to do it on a budget. Basically, they started out doing it on a couple of Amigas. Giving the limitations they had to work with they pulled off some pretty good things along the way, and they got markedly better at it year-by-year. Sure it could never compete with Star Trek's beautiful model work in terms of visual fidelity, but they played to their strength by doing shots that were a lot more dynamic than was possible for the model camp to do, and played a lot more with, say, the physics of moving in a vacuum.
You also have to always differenciate between graphics and aesthetics. Graphics date easily, but the aesthetic value of work done within the limitations of a particular graphics technology is a distinct thing, and can still be appreciated even after the technology is dated. In that sense, they were pretty succesful at pulling off a unique and very particular visual style, and implemented some ship designs that have become pretty iconic with the fanbase.
Plus years later, when Star Trek started doing more CG, they used the same software that had been largely popularized in the TV market thanks to Babylon 5, and some of the same artists worked on both. So Star Trek definitely benefited from their earlier pioneering work.
There's a lot of bad blood between Trekkies and the Babylon 5 audience sadly, but I've always loved both.
Edit: Regarding the "fans on forums do way better stuff" thing that's also come up before in discussions about new CG effects for TNG in here: There's a huge difference between having basically unlimited time to do a shot, and needing to pull off many of them in a production schedule. There's also a big difference between doing it alone and having control over everything, and working in a team where things have to be agreed upon and documented so multiple people can collaborate. The metric for quality on these things is "how good in what amount of time and with what amount of workers", not just "how good".
You also have to always differenciate between graphics and aesthetics. Graphics date easily, but the aesthetic value of work done within the limitations of a particular graphics technology is a distinct thing, and can still be appreciated even after the technology is dated. In that sense, they were pretty succesful at pulling off a unique and very particular visual style, and implemented some ship designs that have become pretty iconic with the fanbase.
Plus years later, when Star Trek started doing more CG, they used the same software that had been largely popularized in the TV market thanks to Babylon 5, and some of the same artists worked on both. So Star Trek definitely benefited from their earlier pioneering work.
There's a lot of bad blood between Trekkies and the Babylon 5 audience sadly, but I've always loved both.
Edit: Regarding the "fans on forums do way better stuff" thing that's also come up before in discussions about new CG effects for TNG in here: There's a huge difference between having basically unlimited time to do a shot, and needing to pull off many of them in a production schedule. There's also a big difference between doing it alone and having control over everything, and working in a team where things have to be agreed upon and documented so multiple people can collaborate. The metric for quality on these things is "how good in what amount of time and with what amount of workers", not just "how good".
Star Wars probably did more for that cause to be honest.
I waited and got a 3D player (for £92, well I say £92, I used cashback so it was free) so I'd either be slightly more future proof, or covered if 3D is a blind alley that goes nowhere. At least I can play my 3D films.
No way...that's one of the best!
Come to think of it, they did not really use direct oncoming shots like that much at all in the series.
Watch something like "Booby Trap", "Tin Man", or "Evolution" in Season 3 and compare it with something like "Gambit" in Season 7.
No comparison.
There were, of course, exceptions, and some of the early season music could be considered cheesy these days, but at least you knew you were getting something unique each week (often from Ron Jones, who wasn't around for later seasons).
The musical score that stands out for me at the moment is 11001001, seriously just have a listen:
049 11001001: Docking at Starbase 74/Eyes
055 11001001: Abandon Ship
056 11001001: Stealing the Enterprise
059 11001001: Auto-Destruct
Now there is nothing that can come close to that in seasons 5,6 and 7 (because its sonic wallpaper!) whereas there are numerous stand out scores from the other seasons which as you have observed includes this:
254 Booby Trap: The Trap
Then of course we have....
STTNG The Best of Both Worlds Isolated OST: First Attack
Ron Jones rules but of course I am being harsh on Dennis McCarthy and Jay Chattaway who also have done some good stuff before the producers put a stop to it. Tin Man was Jay Chattaways first Star Trek score and its certainly a very good one, contrast to his later star trek work and you can see the producers did not really allow them much freedom.
^^ While it's certainly better than what came later like a lot of other contemporary style music it loses a lot when heard solely on its own without the visuals to accompany it.
I liked it while watching the episodes, but listening to it on its own it's just not the same.
I liked it while watching the episodes, but listening to it on its own it's just not the same.
As awesome as that music is...... I can definitely see why Berman probably felt it was a bit too operatic and swashbuckly and TOS-like for TNG. I think he probably wanted something that better reflected the quieter and more mature Captain Picard and his 24th century era.
And as much as I hate to say it, I DO think the show feel much more sophisticated and tonally consistent later on, after the TOS-style music had been replaced.
My only complaint is that Berman didn't at least let the composers cut loose on the action scenes. That's where we really needed more than just the usual sonic wallpaper, I think.
And as much as I hate to say it, I DO think the show feel much more sophisticated and tonally consistent later on, after the TOS-style music had been replaced.
My only complaint is that Berman didn't at least let the composers cut loose on the action scenes. That's where we really needed more than just the usual sonic wallpaper, I think.
I felt like the show had no soul when they went to the sonic wallpaper format. One of the reasons I find the early seasons far superior to what came later on.
A lot of people hate that symphonic music in TV shows, I'd bet there are an equal or greater number of people who are just fine without the scores a lot of us SF fans like.
RAMA
If static lighting and bland music make you happy, more power to you. I just prefer the music and lighting and stories of the first two years.
A lot of the lighting wasn't just the DP. Look at how different directors made use of the DP for individual episodes. Compare Bowman's Brothers to say Cliff Bole (who's style bores the living shit out of me).
If static lighting and bland music make you happy, more power to you. I just prefer the music and lighting and stories of the first two years.
Now I can say I missed Bowman leaving Trek. Missed that a lot. And I really wished TNG would have agreed to his request. Like the X-Files ended up doing.
What request?
Bowman had asked to made a producer who would oversea the direction of the show (ie help new directors, work with them to plan shots, ect).
He ended up getting that gig with the X-Files duties he and Kim Manners shared through most of the series.
Early years he was absolutely my favorite director lifting some terrible episodes and making them watchable. mean look at the Child. What a terrible story, yet look at the shots and how it was lensed. Thats all Bowman.
THere are about 5 directors of TNG that I thought really helped raise the visual look of the show, He was absolutely one of them.
Instead we got Cliff Bole (and many others) a solid and very dependable director, who is extremely safe in how he does his shots.
Finally showed up on Amazon.com for pre-order at a head-scratching $90.99 with a list price of $129.99.
Well, I already submitted DVD Empire's and Walmart's lower prices to them. I suppose if enough of us do it, it'll come down.
Here are their URL's, the prices and the shipping costs:
DVD Empire
http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_item.asp?item_id=1615148&partner_id=11367434&site_id=69
$79.99
free shipping
Walmart
http://www.walmart.com/ip/20933550
$78.86
$1.97 shipping
EDIT (two more):
DVD Planet
http://www.dvdplanet.com/details.cfm/info/293447X
$80.79
free shipping
Buy.com
http://www.buy.com/prod/star-trek-next-generation-season-1-blu-ray-6discs/231792059.html
$74.99
$2.90 shipping
Well, I already submitted DVD Empire's and Walmart's lower prices to them. I suppose if enough of us do it, it'll come down.
Here are their URL's, the prices and the shipping costs:
DVD Empire
http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_item.asp?item_id=1615148&partner_id=11367434&site_id=69
$79.99
free shipping
Walmart
http://www.walmart.com/ip/20933550
$78.86
$1.97 shipping
EDIT (two more):
DVD Planet
http://www.dvdplanet.com/details.cfm/info/293447X
$80.79
free shipping
Buy.com
http://www.buy.com/prod/star-trek-next-generation-season-1-blu-ray-6discs/231792059.html
$74.99
$2.90 shipping
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