The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

[anti-matter]

I don't claim to be one of the great thinkers here but early on into this film I could easily segue into a parallel universe dimension. Steven Hawking, our generations Einstein, says they are very likely...so why make it harder than it is?

Thursday I believed in the existence of Vulcan and Spocks mom by Friday evening things changed. You have to make a leap of faith to really enjoy sci-fi otherwise you'll be like the crew at mystery science theater.

imo this movie was so good I'm surprised the topic of sustainability hasn't come up yet. Like how can they possibly top this?

 

[Chip]

I just saw the movie, and I just have to say this..,

Enterprise didn't violate canon nearly as much as this movie did. I'm fairly disappointed in this movie. JMHO!

 

[Cyke101]

Re: I just saw the movie, and I just have to say this..,

Enterprise didn't violate canon nearly as much as this movie did. I'm fairly disappointed in this movie. JMHO!

What canon did it break if nearly everything after Nero's introduction means a new timeline? Keep in mind, even in the primary universe, we never really knew Spock's childhood origins or Scotty's achievements or McCoy's pre-Starfleet career. The only thing we knew was that they had them.

 

[Chip]

Amanda Grayson dying, Vulcan getting destroyed and never existing in the late 23rd, or 24th centuries, the knowledge of what Romulans look like.

 

[Cyke101]

Amanda Grayson dying, Vulcan getting destroyed and never existing in the late 23rd, or 24th centuries, the knowledge of what Romulans look like.

All of which happened because Nero came (including the first appearance of a Romulan face to Starfleet), which again means that those events occurred in an alternate timeline and not the primary timeline. No canon was violated.

Remember, the alternate timeline broke away from the primary only after Nero came. Anything before that remains the same, including the events of Enterprise. Nearly everything in significant Federation history after that is pretty much changed. Technically, the movie retconned nothing nor did it violate canon because of a divergent timeline.

 

[Chip]

Actually the events of Enterprise are THE only things that have not been affected, because they took place before this movie. BTW, you mean that no one from the future (whether Daniels from the Temporal Cold War, or the time period where Captain Braxton is from) didn't decide to correct the timeline after Vulcan was destroyed? Or is Vulcan so insignificant that it wasn't worth saving?

 

[Cyke101]

Actually the events of Enterprise are THE only things that have not been affected, because they took place before this movie.

I just said that. Read the posts better:

Anything before that remains the same, including the events of Enterprise.

Moving on...

BTW, you mean that no one from the future (whether Daniels from the Temporal Cold War, or the time period where Captain Braxton is from) didn't decide to correct the timeline after Vulcan was destroyed? Or is Vulcan so insignificant that it wasn't worth saving?

Where was this Temporal Starfleet during Yesterday's Enterprise or Time's Arrow or Year of Hell or the Visitor? Additionally, they messed up catastrophically during the Temporal Cold War as well. It could be that they're concerned with the prime universe and no one else's, and that they're still an infancy group and thus not quite good at their jobs just yet.

The problem here is that you think of time as strictly linear, as only one massive structure, rather than as a fabric or network. Frankly, if you must, go rewatch Parallels (an inspiration for the movie's writers) and see why these things events are possible. Even the events of Best of Both Worlds turned out much differently in that episode.

 

[Chip]

Sorry, I misread your first post. Yes, I am aware of TNG Parallels, however once that episode aired, they didn't continue with the parallel universes, they stayed with the main one. However, I do find it amusing that so many people who bashed Enterprise for alledgedly violating canon, are singing this movie's praises! Again, JMHO!

 

[Cyke101]

Sorry, I misread your first post. Yes, I am aware of TNG Parallels, however once that episode aired, they didn't continue with the parallel universes, they stayed with the main one. However, I do find it amusing that so many people who bashed Enterprise for alledgedly violating canon, are singing this movie's praises! Again, JMHO!

And again, I'm asking you, what events in the canon were violated? As nuKirk said, enlighten me. All the examples you brought up were events that happened separately from the established canon, and thus didn't violate it at all. They're singing the movie's praises because they understand that this movie and all that came before it are two distinctly different properties now.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Daniels, Braxton, and others like them are nothing more than the latest and greatest version of the reset button, which is exactly why this movie as so great- someone finally had the balls not to push it.

 

[Cyke101]

Daniels, Braxton, and others like them are nothing more than the latest and greatest version of the reset button, which is exactly why this movie as so great- someone finally had the balls not to push it.

God forbid we ever run into another reset button. There was talk in the Movies forum about decanonizing Nemesis, and while I hate that movie, doing so would still be another reset button. Gotta take the good with the bad.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Daniels, Braxton, and others like them are nothing more than the latest and greatest version of the reset button, which is exactly why this movie as so great- someone finally had the balls not to push it.

God forbid we ever run into another reset button. There was talk in the Movies forum about decanonizing Nemesis, and while I hate that movie, doing so would still be another reset button. Gotta take the good with the bad.

I'm not entirely sure I followed where you were going with that... people are going to "decanonize" what ever they want. If they dislike something enough, then they just won't count it as part of their universe. And, I fail to see how that is a reset button. A reset button is nothing more than a way to do something gutsey, to put the characters in real peril, but at the end of the day they could undo any damage they caused. That's why there is generally no real peril or risk in Star Trek, because we could almost always count on either nothing happening or something does happen and they undo it.

I would rather they do something risky and shocking and leave it alone.

 

[sidious618]

I thought it was a good film and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

[Overbound]

I saw the movie and it was fantastic the action never lets up and its very cool to see the origin story in that aspect the film works well. I would also say it had the right amount of comedy there were several times the whole theater broke out in laughter it was almost the kind of laughter you see when there is a funny moment in Star Wars. I guess that makes sense JJ said he was trying to make Star Trek more like Star Wars in certain aspects.

That's not to say it didn't have problems, Nero could have been a better villain I think the trouble was, was he looked so evil that even after he says why he is tormented you think to yourself what ever your a freak. I also don't buy that that was a mining vessel that thing was massive and clearly meant for war.

What was up with Uhura and Spock? If they really needed a love interest for Spock why didn't they bring back Nurse Chapel I think its a better fit and it would be kind of nice to see them together after all the drama.

As far as the continuity goes I'm not really happy with that. I love this movie and I'm sure I'll love the ones following it. Spock losing his mother I could handle it would allow many things to remain cannon. But the destruction of Vulcan just took things too far now basically most every episode of Star Trek doesn't make sense and seeing the origin story doesn't really work now that I know that it couldn't have possibly happened that way for the TOS characters. You spend 40 years creating something just to be told guess what it doesn't count anymore.

I know why they did it because it freed them up to write stories they wanted to. But I always thought that the large universe and cannon was one of the cool things about Star Trek and now its gone. I know its hard keep all that cannon accurate and create good stories but shit Star Wars does it and they have a massive cannon: tv, comics, movies, games.

If they wanted to clean the cannon so to speak why did they do it like Bryan Singer did with Superman Returns keep the good get rid of the bad (Don't Say Superman Returns was bad it was great and even if you think it wasn't it had nothing to do with cannon). They could have said TOS is cannon, Movies are Cannon (except for 5 it was never cannon), and possibly TNG I'd would have preferred that but either way. That would make the cannon much smaller but still allow for a lot of flexibility.

I guess my biggest problem with the cannon issue is it will never be the same watching TOS or any Star Trek knowing now its not cannon on the current irradiation of Star Trek. Sigh writing this has upset me..

 

[Kelso]

Everything still happened in the old universe.

 

[Aike]

Excellent


2. How did Nero know that he killed Kirk's father? That guy made very little sense. He seemed to just fill the plot when needed (including doing nothing for 25 years...).

He didn´t know that he killed Kirk´s dad. He was never after Kirk in the first place.

 

[Cyke101]

Daniels, Braxton, and others like them are nothing more than the latest and greatest version of the reset button, which is exactly why this movie as so great- someone finally had the balls not to push it.

God forbid we ever run into another reset button. There was talk in the Movies forum about decanonizing Nemesis, and while I hate that movie, doing so would still be another reset button. Gotta take the good with the bad.

I'm not entirely sure I followed where you were going with that... people are going to "decanonize" what ever they want. If they dislike something enough, then they just won't count it as part of their universe. And, I fail to see how that is a reset button. A reset button is nothing more than a way to do something gutsey, to put the characters in real peril, but at the end of the day they could undo any damage they caused. That's why there is generally no real peril or risk in Star Trek, because we could almost always count on either nothing happening or something does happen and they undo it.

I would rather they do something risky and shocking and leave it alone.

I suppose I should clarify: lately in the Movies forum there was a poll on whether or not people would prefer to forget Nemesis. To me, that's still the equivalent of someone waking up and saying, "Oh, it was just a bad dream." And that's how I feel about reset buttons as well. It shouldn't be merely adequate to maintain the status quo if there's something huge going on complete with ramifications.

So fear not, i'm in agreement with you. I just related it to something happening on this very board

 

[archeryguy1701]

God forbid we ever run into another reset button. There was talk in the Movies forum about decanonizing Nemesis, and while I hate that movie, doing so would still be another reset button. Gotta take the good with the bad.

I'm not entirely sure I followed where you were going with that... people are going to "decanonize" what ever they want. If they dislike something enough, then they just won't count it as part of their universe. And, I fail to see how that is a reset button. A reset button is nothing more than a way to do something gutsey, to put the characters in real peril, but at the end of the day they could undo any damage they caused. That's why there is generally no real peril or risk in Star Trek, because we could almost always count on either nothing happening or something does happen and they undo it.

I would rather they do something risky and shocking and leave it alone.

I suppose I should clarify: lately in the Movies forum there was a poll on whether or not people would prefer to forget Nemesis. To me, that's still the equivalent of someone waking up and saying, "Oh, it was just a bad dream." And that's how I feel about reset buttons as well. It shouldn't be merely adequate to maintain the status quo if there's something huge going on complete with ramifications.

So fear not, i'm in agreement with you. I just related it to something happening on this very board

Ok, thanks for the clarrification.

 

[Brent]

Off for my 4th viewing of the movie.

 

[Borgminister]

Off for my 4th viewing of the movie.

Hard to believe, I went 4 times to Nemesis, for crying out loud.

Got mother's day stuff to do and translation work due tomorrow, so I'm going to go then.

Oh--take a friend!