"The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!
- Thread starter DataLoreSpock
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Really? I seem to remember him getting angry at the Borg attack, and snapping the drone's neck. He even felt pleasure afterwords.
Also, for all the folks saying it is wrong to kill someone who has kidnapped you, what if your daughter was kidnapped and was repeatedly being raped, and her only choice was to continue being raped (not being threatened with death) or kill her capture? Would you tell her, "Come on honey, its just rape. Killing is wrong!" I think not.
Data's emotional response in Descent was due to tampering from Lore (or one of his drones). As with his emotion chip later on, it was not part of his normal programming.
Data's normal emotions are far more subtle. So subtle that he doesn't even acknowledge that he has them.
Data's normal emotions are far more subtle. So subtle that he doesn't even acknowledge that he has them.
Data's attempt to kill Fajo in "The Most Toys" is completely in character with his anger and willingness to destroy Armus in "Skin Of Evil." Data responded emotionally to all kinds of circumstances throughout TNG; the flat declaration in "Ensigns Of Command" that he lacked emotion was insisted upon by a producer and was vociferously disagreed with by a number of the writers - what Spiner thought of it is unknown, but he continued to play the character with a subtle but full range of emotions.
Actually, going off this point, Data's actions are almost certainly justified from a legal standpoint by a Starfleet general order. He was taken captive by a hostile force, and as such his duty was to escape by whatever means necessary.
On a lighter note, I was watching the episode today, and that crucial bit of dialogue we've referenced a lot...
O'Brien: "I'm reading a weapon in transit with Commander Data. It seems to have discharged, sir."
Riker: "Discharged?"
Because O'Brien and Riker pronounce 'discharged' differently, and Riker goes very light on the questioning tone, it kind of comes across like Riker is forcefully correcting O'Brien's pronunctiation.
I challenge you to watch that little bit again with this in mind and not find it slightly amusing.
O'Brien: "I'm reading a weapon in transit with Commander Data. It seems to have discharged, sir."
Riker: "Discharged?"
Because O'Brien and Riker pronounce 'discharged' differently, and Riker goes very light on the questioning tone, it kind of comes across like Riker is forcefully correcting O'Brien's pronunctiation.
I challenge you to watch that little bit again with this in mind and not find it slightly amusing.
That's right. And he tried to recreate that in a holodeck. And after The Most Toys, did Data go around getting people to kidnap him so he could shoot them with a phaser? Did he feel pleasure at the idea of killing Fajo?
I agree with you there.
But the fact is that killing Fajo was not the only choice Data had.
Once again, if Data's actions were legally and/or morally justified, then the drama of the episode ceases to exist, so this was "almost certainly" not the writer's intent.
Data does his duty = boring.
Data does something morally questionable and then lies about it = DRAMATIC!
Any argument that suggests Data unquestionably did "the right thing" needs to address this rather fundamental issue first.
"Necessary but repugnant"?
I'd have to agree with Sho on this one: if Data did something he thought was necessary, he wouldn't shy away from admitting it. Why would he find a necessary and justifiable action to be repugnant?
I don't know...
Someone breaks into my house and threatens my family, I may be forced to take extreme measures. Doesn't mean that I'm proud of or even like the actions I had to take. Nor does it mean that I'd be forthcoming on the details unless absolutely necessary.
Just because I need to do something doesn't mean I wanted to do something.
Wouldn't you deem "absolutely necessary" to be your commanding officer asking you about it, though? Or filing an official report later?
I mean, if you killed somebody breaking into your house and then lied to the police about it, you can't really think you were justified in your act.
And, again, the dramatic impact of doing something legally justified is rather diminished, even if Data personally disliked having to do it, wouldn't you say? It's certainly less to talk about if that was the intent of the writer.
I mean, if you killed somebody breaking into your house and then lied to the police about it, you can't really think you were justified in your act.
And, again, the dramatic impact of doing something legally justified is rather diminished, even if Data personally disliked having to do it, wouldn't you say? It's certainly less to talk about if that was the intent of the writer.
You wouldn't admit to it if you were unsure what your rights were, would you?
Remember "The Measure of a Man"?
If I went through what he did, not just having to prove his sentience but also fighting to keep his daughter, then yeah, it would make me think twice about lying to protect myself.
Besides wasn't this part of the season where the writers were dealing with the idea that Data could be human? I think that one small scene was put in to add fuel to that discussion and for no other reason.
And yes, Data was human. And he had every right to blow the head off Fajo. I would've after he treated me (and other living beings) the way he did. He had to be stopped no others would suffer.
Remember "The Measure of a Man"?
If I went through what he did, not just having to prove his sentience but also fighting to keep his daughter, then yeah, it would make me think twice about lying to protect myself.
Besides wasn't this part of the season where the writers were dealing with the idea that Data could be human? I think that one small scene was put in to add fuel to that discussion and for no other reason.
And yes, Data was human. And he had every right to blow the head off Fajo. I would've after he treated me (and other living beings) the way he did. He had to be stopped no others would suffer.
You work under the assumption that Fajo was the only one on the ship other than Data...
Let's see...
Fajo was unarmed, Data had a working weapon.
Fajo had his anti-Data magic bubble, but as I;ve explained many times in this thread, Data can confine him easily enough.
Data can beat into submission any other members of the crew - we even saw him do it!
So what problems would Data have again?
BTW, you are assuming that Fajo's crew was loyal to him. Once they knew that Fajo was confined and going to prison, do you think that they would have stayed loyal to him? Or would they have switched sides in exchange for leniency?
^ Some of Fajo's crew might have tried to break him out of confinement, in anticipation of the "lavish" rewards for loyalty that Fajo was known to give.
Well, since TNG very rarely revisited past situations in future episodes, we really don't know how he felt. I would assume that if he did in fact feel anger toward him that the act of killing him would bring a sense of relief and maybe some satisfaction at know that he saved others from him, but since he never actually killed him, we wouldn't know. I would have liked to have at least a brief conversation about it with Geordie or even Troi.
Well, assuming that we agree that Data can process the variables at a much faster rate than our human brains can, I would think that he factored in all the things we have been debating about and came to the conclusion that the only to escape (and assure that no one else would be harmed) was to to kill him, or at least the only possibility that gave a high percentage of success.
Data would have easily been able to make that impossible. He had an energy weapon, he might have been able to adjust it to weld the door shut. He could have put something in front of the door too heavy for his crew to shift. He could have jammed the door mechanism. Lots of things he could do. You have to assume that Starfleet officers are trained in ways to incapacitate people. Police are today, armed forces personnel are today, why would that suddenly NOT be something in the future?
True, but they didn't. And we can't start assuming things just because we never saw anything to the contrary.
As I've said, Data had other options available.
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