And the fact that O'Brien clearly states that the weapon has fired!
"The Most Toys" Data would have killed but lied to Riker!
- Thread starter DataLoreSpock
- Start date
And the fact that O'Brien clearly states that the weapon has fired!
I keep hearing this alternative about 'confining' Fajo in the escape pod.
You realize that Fajo commands that ship, right?
He could most likely override any confine of his escape pod. He could also call for assistance of his slaves to subdue Data. Communication is only allowed from the ship by Fajo's permission.
Fajo would not have been intimidated by Data, because he believed that Data would not kill him with the phaser. No amount of intimidation from Data would've accomplished anything. Fajo would simply give him the finger, and either get his slaves to subdue Data, OR simply kill Data outright.
You realize that Fajo commands that ship, right?
He could most likely override any confine of his escape pod. He could also call for assistance of his slaves to subdue Data. Communication is only allowed from the ship by Fajo's permission.
Fajo would not have been intimidated by Data, because he believed that Data would not kill him with the phaser. No amount of intimidation from Data would've accomplished anything. Fajo would simply give him the finger, and either get his slaves to subdue Data, OR simply kill Data outright.
He actually says that the weapon has discharged. Perhaps something occurred during transport?
Ethically, I disagree. Injur, ok. Kill, no.
I'm no expert on the law. Can you back up your assertion that it's legal to do this (with real examples)?
Thanks.
Data has a weapon. he can destroy the control panel inside the escape pod. How can Fajo escape from inside if he can't control anything?
How can he call for help if his radio is busted? Remember, Data has used his weapon to destroy all the controls inside the escape pod.
And anyway, given enough time (a few hours, for an android), Data will be able to get around any block out Fajo has.
You saying that if a shot from a weapon that will kill you slowly and painfully hits the floor a centimeter away from your foot, you won't move?
Or perhaps Data was firing it. Data was aiming the weapon. He had his finger on the trigger. The weapon then discharged. You really think that it's unlikely that Data didn't fire?
On the contrary, I think it's extremely likely that he did fire. But I am a big believer in playing devil's advocate. Taking assumptions as facts does no one any favors.
Difficult to find case law that deals with a person killing his kidnapper in self defence - which says 1 of 2 things to me:
Either it has never happened
or else, since case law is built on appeals or (in England) the AG petitioning the Court of Appeal to rule on whether a verdict was correct, odds are if this ever came to trial, it didn't result in a conviction and no one ever challenged it...
For what it's worth, I'll repeat, Self Defence allows a person to kill if the reasonable man would have thought it correct in the circumstances they perceived themselves to be in...looking through the most high profile cases on kidnapping, a large number end with the victim dead...so there's a reasonable expectation for Data to be in fear of his own life - and it's not like Fajo hasn't a) already killed and b) shown an ambivalence towards killing...
Data (sorry, but it's true) is a member of the Federation's Armed Forces...if you heard that a soldier had been kidnapped in Afghanistan and it later transpired that when the Special Ops team broke into the building to rescue him, the soldier had overpowered his kidnapper and was pointing one of those improvised rocket launchers at the kidnapper about to blow him up before making his escape, after that soldier had just watched a person who had helped him escape be similarly blown up, are we really going to say "my god, arrest that man!" ?
I thought it was obvious and unambiguous that he lied. Best thing about the episode.
^ Why? It has never been established that Data can't be evasive or ambiguous when he needs to be. (Remember, Data DID NOT LIE to Riker.)
And while Data does have a respect for all life, this has its limits. Allowing Fajo to live would risk other lives. The greatest good for the greatest number, you understand. (And Data is still a Starfleet officer - fully capable of using deadly force if necessary.)
And while Data does have a respect for all life, this has its limits. Allowing Fajo to live would risk other lives. The greatest good for the greatest number, you understand. (And Data is still a Starfleet officer - fully capable of using deadly force if necessary.)
I think the whole point of the ambiguity is to make you think about it (which, as this thread shows, it was successful in doing). Did he? Didn't he? Is Data capable of that? I don't think there is a definite "Yes or No" answer. It's one big Shroedinger's Cat paradox.
He was deliberately evasive, and withheld the truth. I don't buy Data doing that for a second.
So why was Data evasive about it if it is so easily explainable?
Shouldn't the script have gone:
RIKER: Mr O'Brien says the weapon was fired. Can you explain, Mr. Data?
DATA: Yes sir. I was firing on a criminal in order to stop him from committing further crimes.
RIKER: The transporter panel indicates that the weapon was set to kill.
DATA: Yes sir. Fajo had already killed an unarmed woman and was in a position to threaten others and in my opinion this was the only way I could prevent many other deaths.
Of course, the reason the script DOESN'T say that is because it's all wrong. Killing Fajo was not required. Data could easily contain him and Fajo was unarmed.
I've come to accept that he fired because he was angry and then lied about it. There's no drama if he only did the morally right thing (as explained above) and the point was to show what Data could do when pushed to his limit.
The fact that it's out of character is based on the perception of the character since then. This was only season 3. Data could have continued to "act out" in similar ways after this episode but the writers didn't take it there. So it's an oddity, a curio, something to discuss (and, if you prefer, to dismiss).
The fact that it's out of character is based on the perception of the character since then. This was only season 3. Data could have continued to "act out" in similar ways after this episode but the writers didn't take it there. So it's an oddity, a curio, something to discuss (and, if you prefer, to dismiss).
Well consider this: If Data was given an order by Picard or Riker to disable someone and all that might mean, he would do it as it would be an order from his CO.
Last edited:
It's out of character because Data never acted like that again. There was nothing leading to it and there were no consequences.
And in descent when Data got angry, he reacted entirely differently.
In Insurrection he knew right from wrong and fired on the observation station on the Baku world.
In Insurrection, Data discovered that the Federation and the So'na were about to forceably relocate the Baku to another planet and then before he could process that information, he was damaged and ethics took over and his subjectivity was suppressed...he was basically "stopping the Baku from being moved because it's wrong to move someone without their permission" and that's all...
Had he still been able to think, he wouldn't have done that, he would have gone back to the base and reported his findings...
Had he still been able to think, he wouldn't have done that, he would have gone back to the base and reported his findings...
What? Feeling angry? yes he was. Descent. And he reacted completely differently.
Similar threads
