The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'

[Hartzilla2007]

Post tramatic stress disorder?

And being in stuck in the Delta Quandrant far from home, supplies, allies, and support with several hostile groups after them on several occasions never knowing if they will make it home alive wouldn't cause any Post tramatic stress disorder amongst the crew and captain.



Wow

1)I didn't know Sisko was Captain in the war.

2) Yeah he was al broken up before having to run off and stop Dukaht what with the being in a good mood and celebrating the wars end.

Would it cause such a thing normally in the Voyager crew, probably.
Did it, no.

1) He sure didn't become a captain after it.

2) "In the Pale Moonlight"- Sisko is in a depression due to the many casualities during the war.

3) "Far Beyond the Stars" -Sisko is in a major depression and is loosing his faith due to the war.

4) "Tears of the Prophets" -Sisko takes a leave of absence due the deatj of Jadzia and is loosing focus on what his purpose is.

What good mood?

The one from the whole year after Tears of the Prophets and the whole recently getting married that happened in season 7 you make it sound like DS9 was only 6 seasons long.

Regardless of whether Layton was before the war or not, they couldn't use him as a hero.
That was your question, right? That they should have used captains in the war as heroes?

Layton wasn't a captain, wasn't a hero, and wasn't in the war. SO HE DOESN'T COUNT. And you seem to forget that there were captains fighting in this thing off screen as well as the guys commanding the ships in the various fleets shown who we never saw.

 

[exodus]

And being in stuck in the Delta Quandrant far from home, supplies, allies, and support with several hostile groups after them on several occasions never knowing if they will make it home alive wouldn't cause any Post tramatic stress disorder amongst the crew and captain.



Wow

1)I didn't know Sisko was Captain in the war.

2) Yeah he was al broken up before having to run off and stop Dukaht what with the being in a good mood and celebrating the wars end.

Would it cause such a thing normally in the Voyager crew, probably.
Did it, no.

1) He sure didn't become a captain after it.

2) "In the Pale Moonlight"- Sisko is in a depression due to the many casualities during the war.

3) "Far Beyond the Stars" -Sisko is in a major depression and is loosing his faith due to the war.

4) "Tears of the Prophets" -Sisko takes a leave of absence due the deatj of Jadzia and is loosing focus on what his purpose is.

What good mood?

The one from the whole year after Tears of the Prophets and the whole recently getting married that happened in season 7 you make it sound like DS9 was only 6 seasons long.

Yes, I'm sure the idea of the Federation loosing to the Dominion that was talked about all 7th season didn't bother him at all. Yep, happy go lucky that Sisko was.

I'm also pretty sure I covered Layton wasn't a captain & wasn't a hero when I called him Adm. & a traitor.
If we can pick any number of Captains that we've never seen as an example, then pick one and that will be you're hero of the war. If that's the case, I dominate Capt. Crunch.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

My "we're not talking about Voyager in the Voyager forum" sense it tingling...

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I think that's probably much more likely. Admiral Janeway didn't change her timeline, she created a new one.

But, wasn't she going back in time to change the past? Surely that was pretty much the point of the episode? I don't remember any mention of other timelines.

This sort of thing bothered me in The Visitor as well.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

I think that's probably much more likely. Admiral Janeway didn't change her timeline, she created a new one.

But, wasn't she going back in time to change the past? Surely that was pretty much the point of the episode? I don't remember any mention of other timelines.

This sort of thing bothered me in The Visitor as well.

Well, it's really more how we the audience perceive time.

Think about nuTrek.

If we believe time is simply linear with no divergent paths, then all of Trek as we have ever known it has never existed. The entire universe was reset to something we're somewhat familiar with, but it isn't what we came to know and love.

However, many of us believe nuTrek is a difference dimension, a different, divergent time line, that was created when Kirk's father was killed.

I would say people who believe in that divergent time line do not believe time is linear as we're thinking of it right now.

Instead, time is a concept we create to help understand relativity to other things in our perceived reality. But, there are countless possibilities that can happen at any given point, and it's just as safe a bet to theorize that each possibility can create a divergent time line.

How else do you get the MU?

So, I'm perfectly okay accepting that the Admiral did go back in time, but her interference created a divergent time line much like Spock's nemesis in nuTrek.

 

[AuntKate]

Obviously, the writers/producers didn't think through "Endgame" as carefully as they should have. They were too busy creating ENT--the series in which they would "correct" all of Voyager's flaws and give us Star Trek at its best.

To me, there are two huge flaws in "Endgame" that should have been corrected before it hit the airwaves--C/7 (which should have landed on the cutting room floor for its cheesiness and for coming out of the blue) and a real motivation for Admiral Janeway's decision to "change history," something besides her love and concern for her crew.

The changing Borg Queen heads doesn't bother me--maybe she has a different head for every day of the week? The fact that the time police didn't keep this from happening makes me think it is supposed to happen.

I tend to agree with Janeway, though. Time travel gives me a headache.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Exactly

She was hero who was not a reminder of the war, which would have been needed by that time.

Voyager was something else, something better, to focus on.

As much as we would like to think this, we have a "real world" example of this not happening. IIRC, Shackleton (sp?) and crew came home at the beginning/during WWI, but the weren't as celebrated for their Antartic (That really doesn't look right!)adventure as expected, since the world was distracted by "the War to end all wars."

Yes because using timetravel to cheat is such a worthy goal instead of earning it themselves like they did before old Kathy took that from them because she didn't like what she lost while doing it.

Actually, I don't think the populace at large in the 24th century will find out about the time travel, and if they did they would probably say, "Cool, you used tech from the future to kill that damned Queen."

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I think that's probably much more likely. Admiral Janeway didn't change her timeline, she created a new one.

But, wasn't she going back in time to change the past? Surely that was pretty much the point of the episode? I don't remember any mention of other timelines.

This sort of thing bothered me in The Visitor as well.

Well, it's really more how we the audience perceive time.

Think about nuTrek.

If we believe time is simply linear with no divergent paths, then all of Trek as we have ever known it has never existed. The entire universe was reset to something we're somewhat familiar with, but it isn't what we came to know and love.

However, many of us believe nuTrek is a difference dimension, a different, divergent time line, that was created when Kirk's father was killed.

I would say people who believe in that divergent time line do not believe time is linear as we're thinking of it right now.

Instead, time is a concept we create to help understand relativity to other things in our perceived reality. But, there are countless possibilities that can happen at any given point, and it's just as safe a bet to theorize that each possibility can create a divergent time line.

How else do you get the MU?

So, I'm perfectly okay accepting that the Admiral did go back in time, but her interference created a divergent time line much like Spock's nemesis in nuTrek.

Don't bring the Mirror Universe into this! The MU makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, it's just there because it's cool!

Trek '09 establishes explicitly that it's a different timeline, whereas Endgame doesn't. It seems to me that the finale implies very strongly that Janeway is changing the past - doesn't she say at one point that if she succeeds, things will be better for all of them? For all its merits, I don't think Voyager was a particularly subtle show, so I really doubt whether the writers would leave us to infer this alternate timeline scenario.

 

[AuntKate]

Yeah. I think it is clear that Admiral Janeway changed the timeline of her own past.

 

[Guy Gardener]

okay, so imagine the USS Nimitz battle group (I think that's real? Aircraft carrier and support vessels. modern technology. Thousands of Sailors.) travelled back in time and met up with the Pilgrims half way to he new world and offered them a lift, built a small city for the founders of the greatest democracy the world has seen since Athens when they landed on Plymouth Rock and then massacred the Indians for the Pilgrims so that they could concentrate on revelling in the heroicitude of founding America even though it was becoming evident that they were not actually achieving anything towards founding the country they thought was...

It's like Janeway said she was going to run an entire marathon for charity but took a taxi for the last half the run and still wanted to be credited for running the entire distance including the 12 miles she spent on her ass in that cab.

Admiral Janeway gutted Captain Janeway.

Admiral Janeway was a dick because she stole the glory from her youger selfs epic achievement with a rescue plan which was just pathetic to which she couldn't even stick to because she couldn't out think her underdeveloped self who thought the seat of her pants had more pep than 30 years of contemplation and foreknowledge on the matter... Run, stay, die? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yeah. I think it is clear that Admiral Janeway changed the timeline of her own past.

I think that's probably much more likely. Admiral Janeway didn't change her timeline, she created a new one.

Smells like THUNDERDOME!!!!

Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves! Two Women enter, One Woman leaves!

 

[Brit]

I have a lot of problems with this liner time theory, mainly because it kind of suggests that we are all predestined to act in a certain way, meaning our lives are already set from the beginning. I don’t believe this at all. If Janeway has the ability to change time then time has to be a branching flowing thing, completely dependent on individual choice.

If Admiral Janeway can reset time, she resets it for everyone and whatever happens after is again dependent on individual choices. So if millions died or didn’t die, if lives were changed or not; the flow of action is still dependent on the individual, not on Kathryn Janeway.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're playing a game of chess with some one and you demand because for no good reason that you want to go back 5 moves and try to defeat them from that point even though there's no certainty as to that point as to who is winning. How many times can you insist on winding the clock back before your opponent calls you an asshole packs up her board and goes home?

If Janeway is innocent of stealing Annorax's playbook, then Annorax is innocent of writing it and leading her by example and what sort of hypocrite is the Janeway ARCHETYPE (cross time she's a similar person?) to kill Annorax for going about chores which this woman isn't adverse to employing herself?

Besides what about al those lesser HEROES from the Dominion War we were talking about who kept the home-fires burning while Kathy was holidaying in the boondocks wondering where their flipping parades are? Screw it. Why can't they (and i do mean they. Many Starfleet Captains changing history over and over again on top of one another copying verbatim Janeways morally questionable and highly illegal short cut to fame and infamy) become superheroes too by going back into the dominion war reversing some of their embarrassing losses, even if it made the final victory uncertain, because either it is morally acceptable for everyone to use time-travel endangering the delicate political structure of the present and future to seem more heroic and celebrated or it's not morally acceptable for anyone to (ab)use time travel at all no matter the justification.

 

[propita]

Don't forget the knowledge they brought about the Borg and the new technology that was bound to have been welcome since the war.

There was a lot Voyager brought back that was really needed.

Also, they Federation had just been through a war. They needed a hero, a face. I'm willing to bet that Janeway and crew were the morale boost the Federation need to keep motivated to move forward.

Just read a massive fic on that.

http://dawn47.jetc.org/tfioindex.html

Really interesting. Definitely J/C, and while everyone (but Neelix) is in it, it's Janeway's story.