The morality of Janeway's actions in 'Endgame'
- Thread starter Vurok
- Start date
I think that's probably much more likely. Admiral Janeway didn't change her timeline, she created a new one.
I would make the argument that, because Q was involved, we can't even be sure that Picard travelled through time or different universes. It could have been a very elaborate illusion to teach Picard a lesson. He certainly didn't transport the crew to medieval England in "Qpid".
The Borg Queen was not in complete control of all the facts.
(Or the writers couldn't make up their little minds.)
For old Janeway to vanish if young Janeway died at that point then, what we saw happening "then and there" had to have been the actual literal history which old Janeway had already lived (Marty fading out because his parents never kissed at the enchantment under the sea dance.) through, but the two Janeways were (Unless the admiral was lying through her teeth the whole time) clearly disconnected and divorced from each other's continuity never the twain to be the same person because time had branched when Admiral Janeway forced Young Janeway to make new decisions and create new history which the Admiral had never made and never experienced.
The Queen thought that she was in the middle of a predestination paradox but she wasn't. And there's a safe bet why she came to such a spurious conclusion... This shit Admiral Janeway was pulling was considerably illegal and highly dangerous risking the entire universe for the slim chance at negligible reward... Which is not something one would expect from a hero or a law abiding starfleet C... Admiral.
Oh.
The Time cops didn't stop the Queen in First Contact either but in relativity they did say that they cleaned up after Kim from Timeless.
(Or the writers couldn't make up their little minds.)
For old Janeway to vanish if young Janeway died at that point then, what we saw happening "then and there" had to have been the actual literal history which old Janeway had already lived (Marty fading out because his parents never kissed at the enchantment under the sea dance.) through, but the two Janeways were (Unless the admiral was lying through her teeth the whole time) clearly disconnected and divorced from each other's continuity never the twain to be the same person because time had branched when Admiral Janeway forced Young Janeway to make new decisions and create new history which the Admiral had never made and never experienced.
The Queen thought that she was in the middle of a predestination paradox but she wasn't. And there's a safe bet why she came to such a spurious conclusion... This shit Admiral Janeway was pulling was considerably illegal and highly dangerous risking the entire universe for the slim chance at negligible reward... Which is not something one would expect from a hero or a law abiding starfleet C... Admiral.
Oh.
The Time cops didn't stop the Queen in First Contact either but in relativity they did say that they cleaned up after Kim from Timeless.
Of course he did. It's probably harder to do things half arsed when you're omnipotent.
Which make 's it all vanity.
she abandoned her friends and family to play with "copies" of her friends and family who were "better".
If we didn't see the doctor give her a physical in endgame I'd think possibly that she was dying.
Besides, if she had survived that adventure, what did the past have to offer her? Or was she planning on abandoning this universe like a deadbeat parent once it no longer entertained her and who the damn hell cares what happens to all these people (toys) she set in motion as if she wasn't responsible for them.
Spock is following the Yesterdays Enterprise rules.
But he remembers a universe which has either been destroyed or is inaccessible to his current tech level. Temporal refugee.
there so much shit coming that would not be effected by the changes in the federation to the timeline because they originate so far away from nero's blundering that it is not until they come into contact with the federation that they are anything but exactly what the TV show and movies encountered.
Is old Spock waiting for a second chance to fuck V'Ger?
What about those galaxy sized Amoeba?
There's stuff he must be considering heading off at the pass or at least blunting before he lets these kids have a stab at every thing he narrowly avoided from being killed by mostly.
Shit.
I mean as soon as he figured out where and when he was he must have thought about just fracking the Botany Bay into stardust before those supermen get out.
But without opposition and occasions to rise toward and above, what sort of life is this Spock and Kirk going to live out that they are not meek and jelly compared to the original which is a Prime Directive reason enough for old Spock to shut the fuck up and let everything play out?
But he remembers a universe which has either been destroyed or is inaccessible to his current tech level. Temporal refugee.
there so much shit coming that would not be effected by the changes in the federation to the timeline because they originate so far away from nero's blundering that it is not until they come into contact with the federation that they are anything but exactly what the TV show and movies encountered.
Is old Spock waiting for a second chance to fuck V'Ger?
What about those galaxy sized Amoeba?
There's stuff he must be considering heading off at the pass or at least blunting before he lets these kids have a stab at every thing he narrowly avoided from being killed by mostly.
Shit.
I mean as soon as he figured out where and when he was he must have thought about just fracking the Botany Bay into stardust before those supermen get out.
But without opposition and occasions to rise toward and above, what sort of life is this Spock and Kirk going to live out that they are not meek and jelly compared to the original which is a Prime Directive reason enough for old Spock to shut the fuck up and let everything play out?
Spock's super power is foreknowledge.
he knows when and why shit is going to happen by who and to who.
He didn't know fuck about Nero but they are going to frag those flying jelly fish without blinding anyone or forgetting that he has a second invisible eyelid which he won't even need this time around.
Probably save Gorkon too if he's still in power after the detonation of Praxsis... it's in the federations interest to allow that moon to blow up no matter what it does to Q'onoS' ecology that there's a billion billion tonnes of irradiated rock constantly falling on the homeworld... And without that bloody nose they'd probably start a war and crush the Federation.
Nero not only had fore knowledge about every thing he watched Spock trapped like a fly in amber for 20 years trying to exist the event horizon of the space vagina he was trapped in somewhat.
he knows when and why shit is going to happen by who and to who.
He didn't know fuck about Nero but they are going to frag those flying jelly fish without blinding anyone or forgetting that he has a second invisible eyelid which he won't even need this time around.
Probably save Gorkon too if he's still in power after the detonation of Praxsis... it's in the federations interest to allow that moon to blow up no matter what it does to Q'onoS' ecology that there's a billion billion tonnes of irradiated rock constantly falling on the homeworld... And without that bloody nose they'd probably start a war and crush the Federation.
Nero not only had fore knowledge about every thing he watched Spock trapped like a fly in amber for 20 years trying to exist the event horizon of the space vagina he was trapped in somewhat.
Yeah because what is basically a prototype high-warp shuttle or Runabout has far superior fire power to a Romulan mining ships that likely would need the weapons to defend itself from pirates looking to steal the valuable ores it would transport that Nero had 25 years to put all sorts of mods on, not to mention lets just forget Spock just came out of an anomaly that probably messed up some of his systems. Oh an lets also ignore the fact that Spock may have wanted to try to reason with him and was probably not aware he had traveled back in time.
And they couldn't have used one of the captains that actually fought in the war because why?
Post tramatic stress disorder?
We all saw how Sisko was starting to fall apart due the stress and loss of so many lifes during the war.
Adm. Layton was a traitor believing he was a patriot due to the war.
Voyager coming home intact was a miracle success story.
Exactly
She was hero who was not a reminder of the war, which would have been needed by that time.
Voyager was something else, something better, to focus on.
She was hero who was not a reminder of the war, which would have been needed by that time.
Voyager was something else, something better, to focus on.
And being in stuck in the Delta Quandrant far from home, supplies, allies, and support with several hostile groups after them on several occasions never knowing if they will make it home alive wouldn't cause any Post tramatic stress disorder amongst the crew and captain.
Wow
1)I didn't know Sisko was Captain in the war.
2) Yeah he was al broken up before having to run off and stop Dukaht what with the being in a good mood and celebrating the wars end.
Um Layton was BEFORE the war.
Yes because using timetravel to cheat is such a worthy goal instead of earning it themselves like they did before old Kathy took that from them because she didn't like what she lost while doing it.
Because people shouldn't focus on the sacrifices of those who fought for their freedom and make sure nothing like that should ever happen again.
I mean Trek XI should have made a hero out of one of the captains screwing around at the ass end of nowhere with the rest of the fleet instead of the guy who saved the day and stoped a mad man because the hero who saved them reminds them of a tragety they went through.
Seriously, I don't think you ment it that way but what you said to me at least sounds like pissing on those who sacrified their lives to save the Federation by ignoring what happened to feel better about yourself.
Would it cause such a thing normally in the Voyager crew, probably.
Did it, no.
As far as Sisko....
1) He sure didn't become a captain after it.
2) "In the Pale Moonlight"- Sisko is in a depression due to the many casualities during the war.
3) "Far Beyond the Stars" -Sisko is in a major depression and is loosing his faith due to the war and was considering resigning his commission.
4) "Tears of the Prophets" -Sisko takes a leave of absence due the deatj of Jadzia and is loosing focus on what his purpose is.
What good mood?
Regardless of whether Layton was before the war or not, they couldn't use him as a hero.
That was your question, right? That they should have used captains in the war as heroes?
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Tragedy not tragety
No one is "pissing" on anything.
There comes a time in the collective mind of a group of people who have been through a great stress, like war, where they need to refocus on something that doesn't keep them dwelling on it. They need a spring board to help them move forward.
All societies have done this.
That does not mean they forget about, or "piss on" as you have so described it, those who made the sacrifices. It means the society, on the whole, needs something to help them refocus.
In this case, I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that Voyager coming home, something that everyone thought quite near impossible, was a good refocus. It was a good symbolic representation of the what determination can do despite mounting odds. But, it was a representation via the positive, less violent, aspects of life.
There is nothing wrong with societal refocus.
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