Spoilers The legacy of Star Trek: Picard?

[fireproof78]

And hopefully for both our sakes can square the circle of both new and legacy.

As with many things in life there is a balance to be struck. My biggest push back is the idea that S3 was perfection and all Trek must be this way. I don't think it should. I think a balance should be struck from revisiting past ideas, characters and locations and going to new places. To me, S3 unbalanced at the end. It uses the same tools as other recent seasons but this time that's ok. Which means those tools, combined with legacy and new characters and stories are viable. To me, leaning all in on legacy means there is nothing new to be done with Trek. And that's more sad to me but if legacy is the only way then be honest that legacy carries more value.

 

[cal888]

I mean, in TOS canon women aren't allowed to be captains. I'm also fine with women not wearing miniskirts and gogo boots either.

I'm not an absolutist. Luckily the "Your world of starship captains doesn't permit women" line is from an unreliable narrator and could conceivably mean Kirk had no room in is his life for a relationship, or that Lester failed the Starfleet psych eval at some point. It's not like Kirk would correct her interpretation if she'd been wrong...

I just think current series in production should treat TOS the way TNG->ENT did. Yes, it happened. Yes, there was the space 60's.

Heck, TOS is a show where the crew went to "gangster planet" and "Greek Gods planet" and "Nazi planet". How sacrosanct can you be with that canon?

Well, those made sense to those stories if you accept that up through ENT you had aliens that could pass for humans without even token forehead makeup.

As with many things in life there is a balance to be struck. My biggest push back is the idea that S3 was perfection and all Trek must be this way. I don't think it should. I think a balance should be struck from revisiting past ideas, characters and locations and going to new places. To me, S3 unbalanced at the end. It uses the same tools as other recent seasons but this time that's ok. Which means those tools, combined with legacy and new characters and stories are viable. To me, leaning all in on legacy means there is nothing new to be done with Trek. And that's more sad to me but if legacy is the only way then be honest that legacy carries more value.

I don't think PS3 was perfect, just the best live action Trek since 2005. Should all current Trek be like it? Yes and no. Yes in that like all pre-2005 series, it reasonably respects prior continuity and hits the Star Trek "tone" that you know it when you hear/see it.

Let's say in 2017 DISCOVERY arrived, but was set in in 2450 or 2475. It did new things, but not to the extent of redesigning the Klingons. I think almost all of us would have been open to that. But, 2023 is not 2017. Whatever the late 2010's were, they're over now. We just don't know what this new era is yet. The limitless supply of zero interest money is gone. Political polarization has escalated further. Who knows what happens with the WGA strike... the economy... the 2024 election... where streaming goes...

 

[firehawk12]

Yup. Zero consequences. That's the Star Trek way.

Well, not for SNW or Prodigy anyway... at least not yet. And at least Lower Decks acknowledged the silliness of reset buttons being plot armor for the bridge crew. lol

I'm not an absolutist. Luckily the "Your world of starship captains doesn't permit women" line is from an unreliable narrator and could conceivably mean Kirk had no room in is his life for a relationship, or that Lester failed the Starfleet psych eval at some point. It's not like Kirk would correct her interpretation if she'd been wrong...

I just think current series in production should treat TOS the way TNG->ENT did. Yes, it happened. Yes, there was the space 60's.

iirc the episode is meant to be an allegory for the sexism women faced in the 60s, so I assume she meant what she said literally. Or at least that was the writer's intent for putting those words in her mouth.

I guess I don't know what's missing. The SNW Enterprise feels like the old Enterprise without looking completely kitschy. You have serious episodes and a fantasy episode that could have been a TOS episode, and direct tie-in to The Cage and Balance of Terror. It seems to respect TOS a lot in my eyes.

Well, those made sense to those stories if you accept that up through ENT you had aliens that could pass for humans without even token forehead makeup.

Well those stories exist because they needed to save money and reused existing sets. But it doesn't make them any less corny... After S1 and S2, even TNG stopped doing "different human cultures in space" episodes entirely and I don't think anyone missed having Code of Honor type episodes.

Picard isn't the first person in StarFleet to get mind controlled by an alien entity, the methods don't really matter, end results are roughly the same. They do shit they normally wouldn't do while under mind-control.

The Ensign will probably have to see the counselors or just work it out like everybody else had to.

It's not like getting "Mind Controlled" isn't a thing in Star Trek.

I mean ultimately it doesn't matter because none of this is real anyway, but it just feels like such a gap in storytelling to me. Why even set it 1 year after at all if the writers don't want to deal with any of those consequences? You can just make up a reason why Seven is Captain and why Jack is a commissioned, Ensign Crusher style, from nobody to officer in a day. To me, it's about as contrived as the epilogue we got.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

Yup. Zero consequences. That's the Star Trek way.

Look at how many times Captain Kirk got away with shady stuff that he should've been "Court-Martialed" with.

I mean ultimately it doesn't matter because none of this is real anyway, but it just feels like such a gap in storytelling to me. Why even set it 1 year after at all if the writers don't want to deal with any of those consequences? You can just make up a reason why Seven is Captain and why Jack is a commissioned, Ensign Crusher style, from nobody to officer in a day. To me, it's about as contrived as the epilogue we got.

That's why they gave you the 1 year later, to move the story along to the parts that they cared about and to avoid with dealing with any emotional fall-out.

 

[Citiprime]

Picard had PTSD for basically his entire life with the Borg Queen constantly in his brain. lol You're telling me the Ensign who blew up the Excelsior went back to work like nothing happened?

A manpower shortage, and the possibility that the combination of many senior officers being murdered plus junior officers resigning from trauma might explain why Starfleet has an expedited Academy program that only takes a year to complete. They need to refill positions.

Also, the ending takes place a year after Frontier Day. Think about a year after 9/11. There were still aftereffects, and the memory of it was still fresh, but most people were back to living their lives or trying to.

 

[fireproof78]

and hits the Star Trek "tone" that you know it when you hear/see it.

I don't.

Star Trek has such a varied tone, even in TOS, telling me it "feels like Trek" is so ambiguous.

it reasonably respects prior continuity

Again, ambiguous. How much Trek varied is just par for the course for me. TOS varied in the continuity at times, including what year it took place in, what organization they worked for, etc. Yes, I get that many say, "Fireproof, all that is established now. Respect it!" To which I ask, "does it impact the story?"

Did Discovery go too far? Eh, a little but it can be explained away if people are willing to work with it. As I said, Picard Season 3 demonstrated that fans will work with it if they care about the characters. If DIscovery had done Picard Seaon 3 then no one would defend it as "Best since 2005." Which in of itself pretty much tells me that S3 is the benchmark and will always be used as what is expected, and we are back to TWOK perfectionism territory again. It's again, out of balance. It says "respect" but it means "strict literalism with no room."

Well, not for SNW or Prodigy anyway... at least not yet.

I won't hold my breath.

Look at how many times Captain Kirk got away with shady stuff that he should've been "Court-Martialed" with.

Yup. Instead, "here's a Starship. Sorry for any inconvenience."

 

[Eddie Roth]

What's wrong with the tone?
The continuity is fine. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
Nothing dishonest happening.

I agree with @cal888 here. SNW is a promising show and fun in many ways, but these exact two aspects were what kept me at arm's length in season 1: the tone veering into the comedic FAR too often for my taste (case in point: the horrible "Pike speaks 'pirate'" moment) and the friction with established canon. It's a cliché for longtime fans to be griping about that, sure, but I still have. Have new characters by all means, but then don't call them Nurse Chapel (the main offender for me) if they have a completely different personality. The Spock/T'Pring relationship is another issue along the same lines.

PIC had it easier here: if you show characters 20+ years later, it's easy to explain different characterization by indicating that a lot of time has passed - this always worked for me - but if you're a prequel, this needs to sync up to some extent.

 

[Quantum21]

I think S3 informed people that modern retellings of classic tv shows and reboots don't have to be a catastrophic mess and that there may be Star Trek shows in the future that are worth checking out - especially if Matalas is at the helm. It revived interest in the franchise and that's not a modest achievement.

I'm not sold on the Legacy idea though but I'd most definately give it a go. I'd really like to see a show set 100 years after TNG. The Next Next Generation with a brand new Enterprise.

It said to people: instead of doing anything really new we'll just set off all your "feels" buttons. Rinse, repeat.

A lot of it works, but ultimately unsatisfying.

 

[firehawk12]

A manpower shortage, and the possibility that the combination of many senior officers being murdered plus junior officers resigning from trauma might explain why Starfleet has an expedited Academy program that only takes a year to complete. They need to refill positions.

Also, the ending takes place a year after Frontier Day. Think about a year after 9/11. There were still aftereffects, and the memory of it was still fresh, but most people were back to living their lives or trying to.

That's why they gave you the 1 year later, to move the story along to the parts that they cared about and to avoid with dealing with any emotional fall-out.

I mean... that's basically my complaint, yes. lol

They "yadda yadda yadda'ed" over the actual interesting part of the story so they could slap on a happy ending.

I won't hold my breath.

If they retcon Pike's fate and cancel out what he learned in season 1, then I'll think SNW is the worst show of the 5 at that point.

For Prodigy I expect the kids to be reunited eventually. I'd be disappointed if it was in episode 1, but it wouldn't be as big as a betrayal as Pike escaping the wheelchair.

 

[Citiprime]

If they retcon Pike's fate and cancel out what he learned in season 1, then I'll think SNW is the worst show of the 5 at that point.

I'm guessing they'll do a fake out. They'll try to fake the audience into believing he's found a way to escape that fate, but then pull out of it to show that it's all a fantasy the Talosians are providing for him and Vina to live inside of.

 

[Omegaphallic]

I mean... that's basically my complaint, yes. lol

They "yadda yadda yadda'ed" over the actual interesting part of the story so they could slap on a happy ending.


If they retcon Pike's fate and cancel out what he learned in season 1, then I'll think SNW is the worst show of the 5 at that point.

For Prodigy I expect the kids to be reunited eventually. I'd be disappointed if it was in episode 1, but it wouldn't be as big as a betrayal as Pike escaping the wheelchair.

The point of that is to dump the implications of Picard series, especially but not exclusively Season 3 into Star Trek Legacy lap.

STL is where we'd get exploration of the younger generation relation to Jack after having him in their head, both the highs and lows of being former Borg briefly does Jack still have super powers, the 3 huge generational divides that resulted from events, other possibly threats from Rogue Changelings, Jurati Borg, The Titan-A getting a promotion to Enterprise & does the ship still have a cloak?, Soji/Sutra & Data relationship, Kestra joining Starfleet (is she an empath like her mom?), Seven & Raffi naviating mixing work and person relationship & same with Syndey & Jack, Seven going to see Niomi Wildmen who apparently is a hardcore Fernis Ranger now living at the Ranger version if Tartogua, there's Jack's background from before we met him when he & his mom were rogue humanitarians, how did the Synth ban effect sentient Holograms like the Doctor, why does Daystrom have Kirk's body and what else might the changelings have stolen from Daystrom, and does Starfleet hold Section 31 to account for its part in all this, and what exactly happened during the Moffenet Incident that fried critical systems in the Enterprise F while protecting Raillan Refugees.

 

[fireproof78]

If they retcon Pike's fate and cancel out what he learned in season 1, then I'll think SNW is the worst show of the 5 at that point.

They won't.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Very well.
Please enjoy the leftovers. Please don't tell me Trek is about strange or new or cultural boundary pushing. It is popcorn populist entertainment.

If that's what is desired then have at it. But don't lie to me.

It's increasingly safe and without consequences.

Ironically, there were four episodes during the Berman era that directly tackled oppression of LGBT people head on. I believe there are none since 2017. Yet only one is considered too political.

 

[Racefuel]

It's increasingly safe and without consequences.

Ironically, there were four episodes during the Berman era that directly tackled oppression of LGBT people head on. I believe there are none since 2017. Yet only one is considered too political.

Because the tactic for influence has shifted from discussion of oppression to demonstration that there's nothing to be afraid of.

Showing rathe than preaching

 

[StarMan]

What's wrong with its tone? It's probably the most Star Trek like show we've had since 1969. If you don't like its tone, you don't like Star Trek.

I had no idea. Thank you for the clarification.

Where do I hand in my phaser and comm badge?

 

[fireproof78]

It said to people: instead of doing anything really new we'll just set off all your "feels" buttons. Rinse, repeat.

A lot of it works, but ultimately unsatisfying.

Well, they take their nod from "The Cage." "You'll feel it; that's what matters!"

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Because the tactic for influence has shifted from discussion of oppression to demonstration that there's nothing to be afraid of.

Showing rathe than preaching

Yes, it is about representation. However, that is the lowest level of political engagement AT BEST, and can only be political in the context of oppression and erasure.

 

[The Wormhole]

but then don't call them Nurse Chapel (the main offender for me) if they have a completely different personality.

Nurse Chapel had no personality in TOS. What SNW has done with her is an improvement.

 

[cal888]

I had no idea. Thank you for the clarification.

Where do I hand in my phaser and comm badge?

Remember, it is gatekeeping only when the other side does it (whereas the reverse is in operation for PICARD season 3)...

 

[fireproof78]

case in point: the horrible "Pike speaks 'pirate'" moment) and t

I figured that was his Kirk speaking like a gangster moment.