Spoilers The legacy of Star Trek: Picard?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Eddie Roth, Apr 23, 2023.

  1. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Definitely would not like to see people out of work. Sadly AI will do that for many jobs.

    Progress. Heh.
     
  2. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    Enough people would be against AI creators that I'm not worried.

    On the other hand, some franchises are so paint by the numbers, they could be done by AI and no one would know the difference if they weren't told.

    I'm a (very) independent filmmaker and write or co-write my own scripts. One day I'd love trying to collaborate with AI to see how that would work. But ChatGPT currently writes at the level of a 10-year-old.
     
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  3. Citiprime

    Citiprime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Both "Demons" and "Terra Prime" were very interesting, and I always thought it is what seasons 1 and 2 of Enterprise should have been about. Throw out all of the Temporal Cold War crap (I just think time travel is an overused story idea in Trek as it is) and make the show about how Starfleet is a very controversial organization at that point in human history.

    That there would be people who would agree with the Vulcans, but for different reasons, and argue that in the wake of World War III and first contact that humanity should care more about taking care of itself than going outward into space. And once Starfleet started discovering different threats, and having to deal with the consequences of those threats, the proponents of being isolationist would only become more stringent.

    If Starfleet was really a thing in our world, there would be intense debates about whether we should be spending resources on the space/military versus redoubling efforts to raise quality of life on Earth. There would be people arguing that we have no business concerning ourselves in the affairs of others (e.g., Archer's role in mediating between the Vulcans and Andorians).

    And the Coalition/Federation would be massively controversial with huge segments of the population. There would be parts of human society who would object on the grounds of sovereignty, or it possibly diminishing human culture (e.g., look at the stupidity of the British public in their Brexit withdrawal).
     
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  4. Citiprime

    Citiprime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    While that's true, there's also examples I think of where people's opinion either haven't changed or arguably have worsened about some of these things.

    Opinions about The Motion Picture have softened considerably over the years, and people can point to individual scenes they like about The Final Frontier, I would submit that Nemesis is still as disliked as it was when it was fresh on people's minds. And I don't think any of the TNG movies have increased in stature over time, only that their flaws have become more prominent.
     
  5. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    This is the version of Enterprise I would've wanted to see!

    What's key is getting to why people dislike things in the first place. There are three types of people who don't like Discovery, from what I can tell:

    • Group 1: If DSC wasn't what some people wanted back in 2017, and they'd have rather had something like PIC Season 3 or SNW, they might be more apt to give DSC a (fair) chance now that they've gotten what they wanted elsewhere.
    • Group 2: If they just thought DSC was bad, that opinion might lessen over time and the dislike might eventually shift to something else they think is bad. Might.
    • Group 3: If they don't like DSC due to Culture War reasons, then they're not going to like DSC ever. This last group would have to change a lot more of their views than just what they think of a TV show.

    The first two groups, yeah, I expect that eventually they'll dislike DSC less and some might even start to actually like it in some cases, even if it doesn't become a favorite. But the third group? There's no hope for them. Trying to win over Group #3 is a waste of time. In fact, I'd be more concerned if they liked it than the other way around.

    Driving it back to Picard: I think Season 1 will become better-regarded over time, because it will be viewed as something that tried to break away from TNG instead of running right back into its arms. If Picard continued in the style of Season 1, then I could've seen it as a long-running series. I could've seen it having 5-7 seasons. But the way it was in Season 3? As much as I liked the third season, they won't be able to do something like that again. It's a "last hurrah", not the basis for a continuing series of adventures with the same characters.

    However, here's something that Picard definitely changed for me: Back in 2002, 2003, and the 2000s in general, I would never have said I wanted another TNG adventure. Ever! Picard restored my good-will towards TNG, prompted me to re-watch the show, and now, if they did have another adventure, now I wouldn't be against it like I would've been 20 years ago. Now it would be more like, "I don't know. I like the way they already ended it... " In 2003, I would've been like "Hell no! HELL NO!!!!"
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
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  6. Citiprime

    Citiprime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I agree with you that it's unlikely that the third group will ever come around, and honestly I could care less if they ever do. If you base your television watching on whether a woman prominently being captain offends your political sensibilities, that's a you problem, not a Star Trek problem.

    My problems with Discovery go back to the idea that, for me, it's not an enjoyable watch. It's not a show I go back to and want to rewatch episodes, because I find the writing itself lackluster. Other people really like it, and more power to you, but I just spend episodes hoping it will be better and being disappointed.

    And, again, my problems with Picard season 1 go back to the writing and that I don't find it an enjoyable watch or an enjoyable payoff. There are individual moments I like, but I find some of the stuff really tedious at times, like the Jurati-Maddox plot, or the Soji-Romulan dude stuff, and the Zhat Vash's motivations have some glaring plot holes (e.g., if they're so concerned about the spread of AI and Soong androids, why was there never an attempt on Data's life during TNG or duing his existence before it?).

    I don't think you could go to the well of a TNG reunion every year like season 3 did, but I think a Legacy show could be rooted in the concept of exploring consequences in the Star Trek universe, both through past characters and the setting at large. I think you could blend episodic stories based in something new that would nevertheless let you touch on past things. I would love to know how the Cardassians are functioning 30 years on after an attempted genocide of their planet. Or the state of the Klingon Empire in the 25th century. And in doing so, maybe you drop in with Garak, or Worf comes back to get a story set in Klingon space. I think you could do stuff like that in a Legacy series while also having all new adventures.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
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  7. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ok, I thought I'd end up with tons of notifications and be accused of derailing the discussion downthread, but I guess AI just doesn't get people replying in mass like the Discoprise does:crazy::D. Might have to start a thread elsewhere about it... apparently the Popcast will be interviewing some of the OTOY people about the project, and they'll likely have more info then about the implications of the technology.

    But, as the OTOY video does tie into PICARD season 3, it hopefully can be on topic here, as it is a legacy of this series...

    Yeah I don't think actual holodecks are coming any time soon, and augmented reality is just something for Facebook to plow money into, but customized entertainment is likely in the next 2 decades. Choose your own canon. Tell the app that you're a progressive activist, a moderate liberal, a centrist, or a conservative and Star Trek will never again offend your political sensibilities! TOS won't be "dated" for you anymore. Just staggering to think about the implications to be honest.

    To be fair, as PICARD season 1 went through a changeover in showrunners and reshoots, that can be objectively critiqued. But one person's being objective is another's subjective, and if I've learned one thing from this BBS, Star Trek is incredibly different things to different people. It's crazy the franchise manages to appeal to so many subgroups.

    What if you wrote the script, and had some people act, but the AI then filled in the background etc?

    TMP greatly benefits from the director's edition. I'm glad I paid extra for the SLV in 4K, but that is one for nostalgia's sake. Maybe NEM could be improved with a new cut? INS at least is... inoffensive.

    They definitely tried to do their own thing... I wish they had some Star Trek veterans involved in the writing staff and behind the scenes. Season 1 is about 75% there, but the rest just has many unforced errors. But one legacy of PICARD is season 1 will always be litigated.

    That's my Goldilocks / "just right" spot for a Legacy series as well.
     
  8. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    I've experimented with ChatGPT. It's not where I would need it to be in order for it to be useful for my purposes. At this time. I'll re-evaluate every few years until it's at a point where I think it would help me more than I would have to guide it.

    I prefer creating my own stuff independently in general. The few people I collaborate with for writing, I've known since college. I started writing stories when I was 7 and it took until the middle of my 30s before I felt like I had a script that I could shoot. Which I did. (I've written, directed, and edited two independent films and am in pre-production for my third.) I took college courses on script writing, read several books, and wrote a lot of crap before I started getting to the point where I could do something actually good. AI has to be able to be creative, run through all kinds of variables, and it has to have the ability to tell the difference between a good idea and a bad idea instead of just coming up with an idea in general. If it can judge quality, and it has some sense of something beyond just "plug X, Y, Z and mimic this template!" There has to be inspiration instead of just calculation. Then it'll be something I'll consider useful and something I'd be able to have faith in. Even on a supporting level in a collaboration.
     
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  9. Quantum21

    Quantum21 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Considering Discovery is much more popular than Enterprise for example, and probably seen by more people than any trek show since tng, it's already in the good graces of most trek fans. I also think it brought in younger, more internet savvy viewers as well as more diversity into fandom. All good things.

    But I also feel that, like Enterprise it will have some of the dismissive fans re-assess in a few years, and those with the mistaken belief it is less "Trek" will see that it's actually better with Trek themes than Picard season 3.

    Come to think of it, other than friendship and familiarity, the only themes season 3 Picard does have are the opposite of what TNG normally espoused. So there's that too.
     
  10. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    I don't understand the criticism of season three just being fan wank as the entire show has been a fan wank since day one.

    1. The series is built around a popular character that had seven season on television and was in four movies. A member of his new crew is 7 of 9, another popular character from a Trek show who had no prior connections to Picard up to this point.
    2. Season one saw the return of Hugh, Ichab, Commander Madox, Riker, Troi and even Data in dream sequences. Riker even shows up again out of nowhere at the end of the season to save Picard's hide with a fleet of ships. The only ground broken in season one was a slow and painful story that could have been told in half the number of episodes.
    3. The entire storyline from season two was another Q test which we've seen numerous times before and we even get a return of Whoopi Goldberg as Guainan and Will Wheaton as Crusher. Alternate reality? Nope, not a new idea as it's been done by Trek countless times already with the most recent being the Kelvin movies.
    The only criticism I have for season three is the decision to throw the Borg Queen in near the end of what had been (IMO) the best of the three seasons up to that point. Some didn't like Season three and that's fine, but fan service is not a valid criticism as the show has played it safe with fan service since day one.

    A truly new and original way to do this series would have been for Picard to do what he at one time was tempted to leave the Enterprise for: go on an archeological expedition. We could have seen Picard get with a group of archeologists and scientists to go after some rare find or maybe go to a planet and find out what happened to a now extinct species. That would have been breaking new ground with the character.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2023
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, I disagree simply because Season 1 was willing to put people out of Starfleet. That alone makes it more interesting for me.

    The fan service in Season 1 was there but seasoned throughout. It made an attempt at following up on consequences in universe. It set the pieces in different places and played with them. S2 started down back to the familiar and 3 was all in.
     
  12. Omegaphallic

    Omegaphallic Commander Red Shirt

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    Fan service was the whole point of Picard, but it was damped in season 1 & 2, in season 3 it could be done right, BUT season 3 had a huge secondary purpose, pilot for Star Trek Legacy.
     
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Unless legacy is about an aging band of Starfleet officers revisiting their greatest hits, I don’t think Picard was its pilot. :lol:
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I thought they couldn't afford to use the main crew? Legacy is about children, right? And cheap, right? So Paramount can make that evil money.
     
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  15. Cortez

    Cortez Commander Red Shirt

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    The legacy is that Patrick Stewart lost the run of himself for a few seasons and then suddenly pulled a u-turn on proceedings.... But the writing has always been the same... rubbish. That's it in a nutshell.
     
  16. Enterprise is Great

    Enterprise is Great Vice Admiral Admiral

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  17. Serveaux

    Serveaux Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Pretty much.
     
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  18. Cortez

    Cortez Commander Red Shirt

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    I love my Trek, but I'm not a robot. Absolute joke.