Spoilers The legacy of Star Trek: Picard?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Eddie Roth, Apr 23, 2023.

  1. hellojane

    hellojane Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It also alienated a lot of newer fans who came to Trek through Picard S1/S2, SNW, and Discovery. Their voices and issues are important here also since they're the ones who have been supporting Trek in recent years while so many disgruntled fans complained and didn't watch.

    For me, it's 1, 3, and then 2. Season 1 had lots of ambition and a lot of good ideas and characters. I think, and still think, telling a story with people like Picard, Seven, Troi, and Riker outside of Starfleet and coping with their best days maybe being behind them was a good idea. It didn't succeed in some areas, while I think it did succeed in a lot of others. I also for me had some of the best episodes of Trek in recent years.

    Season 3 was very safe and it's only ambition was giving the TNG cast a good sendoff. It succeeded in leaving them all in a happy place and they got a good sendoff. It succeeded in setting up the next part of the 25th century. I think it failed a lot story wise and didn't do certain characters any favors. I think it'll be a complicated legacy once you look past the TNG cast sendoff.

    Season 2 was what it was.
     
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  2. JoseNoodles

    JoseNoodles Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Which is weird considering a lot of criticism of streaming Trek, at least on here, was that it was too dark in tone and not particularly focused on space exploration.
     
  3. HotRod

    HotRod Commodore Commodore

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    What's wrong with its tone? It's probably the most Star Trek like show we've had since 1969. If you don't like its tone, you don't like Star Trek.

    I shudder to ask this, but what continuity problems?

    Indeed

    THIS.
     
  4. Omegaphallic

    Omegaphallic Commander Red Shirt

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    I love SNWs but for some folks the crew comes off too unprofessional, like too arguementive with the Captain, Uhuras too awestruck sometimes, Pike & Una too lentient with insuboratination, etc..., these are all Starfleet graduates after all.
     
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  5. Omegaphallic

    Omegaphallic Commander Red Shirt

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    I think alot of folks who liked Discovery, SNWs, and Picard S1&2, loved S3 of Picard too, but I think the great divide between those who hate alot of Nutrek and those that hate season 3 of Picard is a fight between decontructionists and star trek traditionalists, but also between cultural elitists and populists in a broader context.

    And treating populist as if its a bad thing in its own right is a sad thing, as if its a terrible crime to appeal to the wants & needs of the general public instead of elites who think they are better then everyone else,how dare Terry appeal to the working class!

    Personally Discovery is interesting, with some interesting ideas, but its extremely experimental, high risk, so while it hits gold sometimes, its too sloppy in its handling of certain elements of the legacy to reach its potential.

    STP season 3 on the other hand handles things perfectly close IMHO. Buts more creatively risky then it gets credit for, because most of that goes into setting up Star Trek Legacy.

    Think about it, there is now the greatest generational divide within Starfleet in its entire history.

    On one side you have a generation of Starfleet that had a long history of fighting the Borg, but never really getting the Borg.

    Then you have a generation that was completely or almost completely assimulated, with Jack Crushers literally being apart of them, Terry points out that is why young folks didn't turn on Jack, they KNEW HIM. The metaphor for being a key social influencer, aka the "Voice" used by the Borg Queen. By liberating Jack from the Queen, they liberated a generation of Starfleet, both Officers and Enlisted.

    Then the 3rd generation, Kestria generation, they are entering Starfleet nether as vets in the War against the Borg, who lived under threat from them, nor as formerly assimilated Borg. She would feel like such an outsider.

    That's the game changing dynamic for Star Trek Legacy that shows that P3 and STL are more then memberries.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2023
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And? I've heard of worse stories from military serving family members.
     
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  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Argumentative? That might be a new one.
     
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  8. Citiprime

    Citiprime Captain Captain

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    As far as Strange New Worlds and continuity, one thing that should be noted about Strange New Worlds season 2 is that it's crossing over with Lower Decks, a show that's deeply rooted in TNG. Also, just look at the trailer for season 2. The Klingons aren't either the season 1 or season 2 version of the fishhead Discovery Klingons.

    Also, if one looks at the trendline with the CBS All Access/Paramount+ shows, they've more and more moved towards being rooted in TNG-DS9-VOY both in tone and style (e.g., Prodigy can almost be seen as a Voyager follow-up), to the point that Discovery sticks out as the oddball of the group. And I don't think that's happened by accident.

    Beyond that, I have no problem with the idea of different series going in different directions stylistically, even ones I disagree with. But if we get into a situation, which we seem to be entering given Paramount's financial position, where what comes next in Star Trek is about either/or choices where only a limited amount of series get made, then people are going to argue about which of those choices is best.

    If people want to claim the direction of a Legacy series will lead to a stagnant Star Trek, then it's only fair to consider the other side of that argument. First of all, I would argue there's already been stagnancy in having multiple Star Trek shows and movies reinterpret the 23rd century over and over and over again. And while I truly enjoy and like Strange New Worlds, the one issue I have with the concept of the series is that we're stuck in a prequel where we're boxed in as far as knowing where it's all going, and the fates of most of the characters. In some ways, I wish we could have had these actors and the creative team doing a 25th century show that built on the universe and propelled the Star Trek universe forward.

    Moreover, if the arguments are about alienating fans and appealing to viewers, I think it's folly to pander in the search for new viewers, or programming to a niche demo with something like Starfleet Academy, if that decision is made over what a large portion of your fandom has shown they are excited about, like, and want to see more of in Star Trek after season 3 of Picard. None of the first five series of Star Trek were developed or produced in that way. None of them were created with the intent of being the Star Trek for the teen demo. TNG became a great television series, and then both adults and children watched.
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Very well.
    Please enjoy the leftovers. Please don't tell me Trek is about strange or new or cultural boundary pushing. It is popcorn populist entertainment.

    If that's what is desired then have at it. But don't lie to me.
     
  10. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Every crew member or character that has been "Mind Controlled" in Star Trek, through-out every single series, they all don't get much time post incident, it just gets wiped away as well as part of being in StarFleet, that some alien force or entitty will try to take over your body. Most people forgive the person that any action they did while under the influence, wasn't them.
     
  11. El Maestro

    El Maestro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This is an underrated comment for a lot of reasons. I was ok with the idea that PIC would be not TNG 2.0 and even liked a lot of it that wasn’t! But so many of the creative decisions were baffling and kind of bad…not just bad for a ST show, just bad in general. I had forgotten about the Romulan incest twins haha!!!

    S3 was an improvement in a lot of the basics of storytelling…it doesn’t make it perfect or whatever but it was better made.
     
  12. El Maestro

    El Maestro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes I too wonder this. SNW is very good for this…
     
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  13. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    While it is true Admiral Clancy was originally written to lead the Copy and Paste Fleet in the S1 finale, they did not film scenes of her doing so. The whole reason they made the switch to Riker was because when they made arrangements to use the Disco bridge set for those scenes, they learned Jonathan Frakes was in studio anyway directing the Disco episode which was filming at the same time.
     
  14. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I guess the fandom has become Balkanized to the point a common point of reference in the present is no longer possible, only from the past.

    UPN is to blame for the stagnation of VGR and ENT. Yes, Berman and Braga could have tried to push back more. But then they could have easily been replaced by people that took all the notes, and not just some of them.

    Meanwhile, CBR just put out an article yesterday blaming UPN and Les Moonves for the cancelation of ENT.

    I think PS3 was trying to correct for INS, NEM, and the first two seasons. But yeah, I can't let go of TOS being canon and the load bearing pillar that establishes the shared universe of the franchise. No matter what you do, trying to "fix it" (which is incredibly presentist, tries to inject "current day" into something that has already proven it will be as timeless as anything over 50 years old can be, and will itself likely date far more quickly than the original source material only causes more problems than it "solves".

    I think this is the reason SFA is being made. They don't want to lose the new viewers, and the market research probably shows appealing to both groups might not work in a single show. Maybe lower budgets will turn out to give both groups what they want, and with less executive interference resulting from the vast sums of money on the line.

    This is one of the main reasons why I actually find DISCOVERY season 1 to be superior to SNW S1.

    As well as modernists vs postmodernists.

    Again, I'd argue ST09 was populist because it intentionally oversampled the "general audience" demographic, while PS3 was "democratic" in that it sought to appeal to a supermajority of the legacy fanbase. But yeah there I am gatekeeping again, because it's only the other side that gatekeeps!

    The secret Picard/Crusher child plot is a massive risk in and of itself.

    Yeah, I'm kinda dreading that one. I wonder what they'll use, if not the multiverse with all the TOS visual continuity already established in that show.

    The zero sum game.

    Fair point.

    Four quadrant (appealing to a broad audience) worked for decades, and in an era of budget's tightening, spending $10 million an episode that already structurally alienates a wide portion of your existing fanbase either needs to quickly add replacement viewers or go broader to be more sustainable.

    Perhaps to you it is a storytelling format where past continuity only matters inasmuch as it serves the current story, while for others it is the shared universe of history plus timelessness that brings them in. And only a Star Trek show can use the past Star Trek lore legally, but something "strange or new or cultural boundary pushing" could be any new genre series.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Again, it's not that history does or doesn't matter. It's my personal preference that you take that history and show consequences in a real breathing world, that things have weight, that characters are impacted by the events rather than warping off to the next adventure.

    Again, I don't mind legacy. I mind stagnation and characters feeling stuck. They no longer feel like people but avatars of audience feel goodness.

    Finally, if people want this then it's fine but be honest about what is in the appeal, and not moving or being culturally dynamic but reactionary like all populist art.
     
  16. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Netflix and Amazon were effectively giving blank checks for early DISCOVERY and PICARD. Now they need future Star Trek efforts to be profitable immediately on their own terms. Maybe this means more SNW, or maybe Legacy.

    And hopefully for both our sakes can square the circle of both new and legacy.
     
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  17. JoseNoodles

    JoseNoodles Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sure UPN was a shit network, but I'm not entirely convinced that making Enterprise syndicated would have worked. By the time Enterprise aired, syndicated programming as we knew it in the 90s was on the decline. I also think we shouldn't discount Berman's statement about franchise fatigue. Even if Enterprise had aired for seven seasons, I don't thin a sixth Star Trek show would have followed. I think Berman and Braga would have hung up their hats by that point, or perhaps suggest that UPN produce a different kind of sci-fi show that wasn't set in the Star Trek universe.
     
  18. firehawk12

    firehawk12 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There were so many interesting ideas in S1 that went absolutely nowhere.
    What happens to ex-Borg? What happens to the Romulans after the start of the Kelvin-verse split? Even something as broad as whether AI have a right to exist?

    At least S1 had the courage of its convictions to kill Data, but as we know, it didn't really matter.

    S2 had similar ideas by being set in the contemporary US. Making Rios be a victim of racist ICE cops could have gone somewhere... but he just dies off screen when the world enters WW3. Great.
    Soong could have been a Musk clone, and what happens when an insane egotistical billionaire has too much control... but that idea went nowhere either. The Jurati Borg was maybe an interesting evolution of the Borg threat, but just like Data's death, it might as well not have happened.

    S3 was at least coherent and cogent, so I understand why people think it's the best of the series. Even though it's the same episode writers, clearly Matalas had a better idea of how to tell a story than Chabon or Goldsman (which is weird because I think SNW is better than any season of Picard, but who knows).

    Picard had PTSD for basically his entire life with the Borg Queen constantly in his brain. lol
    You're telling me the Ensign who blew up the Excelsior went back to work like nothing happened?

    I get that they're not going to show that, but it just made the epilogue feel so empty. These old people are celebrating while all the young people in Starfleet are left to wallow in their own depression I guess. lol

    I mean, in TOS canon women aren't allowed to be captains. I'm also fine with women not wearing miniskirts and gogo boots either.

    But I guess in my mind, as less of a fan of TOS than TNG, I don't see anything SNW does as egregious to me. Discovery was worse in that respect and SNW feels like a positive correction. In fact, if anything, to me SNW captures the whimsy and lighthearted nature of TOS really well, while also trying to tell a serious story through Pike and the Gorn.

    Heck, TOS is a show where the crew went to "gangster planet" and "Greek Gods planet" and "Nazi planet". How sacrosanct can you be with that canon?
     
  19. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Picard isn't the first person in StarFleet to get mind controlled by an alien entity, the methods don't really matter, end results are roughly the same. They do shit they normally wouldn't do while under mind-control.

    The Ensign will probably have to see the counselors or just work it out like everybody else had to.

    It's not like getting "Mind Controlled" isn't a thing in Star Trek.
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yup. Zero consequences. That's the Star Trek way.