The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[Campe]

Sure, heroes need conflicts, but that doesn't mean they need to be deconstructed or suddenly dark, and ti doesn't mean Disney should be shitting on the old characters to prop up the new, less interesting character. I never read the now-legends books, but apparently Luke did some cool stuff there. I just feel like they did the worst possible thing. That being said, as simple as it is, having Luke take out the green saber and schooling some fools (other than his nephew) would have been awesome to see.. simple? sure.. but why not? But in truth, I wouldn't want him to just do that. But I also didn't want them to smear this "Oh I have angst now" shit all over this character the way they did it. The original trilogy was a lesson in writing, so much so that they made it look easy.. they peppered complexity.. they didn't dish it out in spoonfuls.. the characters changed between films but not radically. And yes, I am sick of the 30 year time gap being an excuse for radical changes.. there is no off screen movie, more it just serves as an excuse for lazy screenwriting.. screenwriters today would rather go dark that to fortify the optimism . They could have kept Luke as a good man the one that others use.. both now and alter, as a kind of measuring rod for Jedi.. and the fact that he put family and friends above all could have changed the Jedi philosophy gradually over many years. But they smeared a lot of crap on his character. And the fna base may be split. add to that a lady in a purple dress who is a bitch, hyperspace nonsense, Leia Poppins, terrible humor with Hux, a convoluted story, moral grandstanding, a useless subplot that "teaches Finn" in ways that no scripted story should ever teach a character, terrible hackneyed editing, radical tonal shifts with awful humor, and a film that really is just boring anyway, and you have a disaster

Ya know, before TLJ came out, I was all for a Master Luke moment fighting against Snoke and the Knights of Ren. I thought that would be the coolest thing. Then I saw TLJ and I realized something: It would not have been cool. It would have been kewl!!!1! But at the same time, it would have gone against everything the Jedi stood for.

For a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic.
-Obi Wan Kenobi

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.
-Yoda

Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these things.
-Yoda

Wars not make one great.
-Yoda

To answer power with power, the Jedi way this is not.
-Yoda

We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers.
-Mace Windu

TLJ showed all of this in spades with Luke's portrayal. But so much of the criticism seems to end with Luke saying "It's time for the Jedi to end." So much more happens in this film. So much more transpires for Luke that changes his mind and convinces him to perform truly the greatest heroic act he can: sacrificing himself for something greater by using the Force for knowledge and defense. His act gets to the very core of what the Jedi stand for. He couldn't be the legend the galaxy wanted him to be. You complain about the lack of complexity in the sequel trilogy but there is so much in Hamill's performance here and the writing for his character. It’s so much more than people’s perception that he regressed as a character. At least that’s how I see it. You can disagree.

I'm not for one second going to suggest that you don’t have the right to your complaints about the movie. You also have the right to voice them. And you have. At least thirty times in this very thread. You continue to add nothing new to this thread or your own arguments. It doesn’t matter how you say it, we get it. You don’t like TLJ. You don’t like the sequel trilogy. You really don’t like Galaxy’s Edge. You don’t like Disney and you don’t like the direction they’ve taken Star Wars. That’s your right. But it’s also our right to disagree.

 

[fireproof78]

TLJ showed all of this in spades with Luke's portrayal. But so much of the criticism seems to end with Luke saying "It's time for the Jedi to end." So much more happens in this film. So much more transpires for Luke that changes his mind and convinces him to perform truly the greatest heroic act he can: sacrificing himself for something greater by using the Force for knowledge and defense. His act gets to the very core of what the Jedi stand for. He couldn't be the legend the galaxy wanted him to be. You complain about the lack of complexity in the sequel trilogy but there is so much in Hamill's performance here and the writing for his character.

Well said. I get that people don't like Luke's portrayal and that it was unexpected. But, it is far more than just hermit Luke. It's a Luke learning from his mistakes, his emotionally rash decision, and self-loathing. It's him reconnecting with the Force to shine out what the Jedi stand for.

TLJ may not be the perfect but it was absolutely worth it to see that moment. Also, more annoying, is the constant rambling of "Luke is dead" in a series were Force ghosts come back and interact with the physical world.

You don’t like TLJ. You don’t like the sequel trilogy. You really don’t like Galaxy’s Edge. You don’t like Disney and you don’t like the direction they’ve taken Star Wars. That’s your right. But it’s also our right to disagree.

Indeed. And its becoming increasingly clear that it's not about expressing an opinion. It's become a hammer to beat on anything not good enough to be Star Wars. And, it's rather depressing. Shouldn't fandom be something one enjoys?

 

[Campe]

Well said. I get that people don't like Luke's portrayal and that it was unexpected. But, it is far more than just hermit Luke. It's a Luke learning from his mistakes, his emotionally rash decision, and self-loathing. It's him reconnecting with the Force to shine out what the Jedi stand for.

Emotionally rash decisions are a key character component for Luke. Always have been.

Indeed. And its becoming increasingly clear that it's not about expressing an opinion. It's become a hammer to beat on anything not good enough to be Star Wars. And, it's rather depressing. Shouldn't fandom be something one enjoys?

Certain YouTubers might disagree with you.

I think all of this might come down to expectation vs. reality. Fans had 32 years between ROTJ and TFA to fill in the blanks for themselves as to what happened. They saw the journeys of Han, Luke and Leia in their own way. Whether they followed the EU or not, they imagined adventures after the defeat of the Empire and played them out in their head. Honestly, a sequel trilogy 32 years after one of the biggest cultural phenomena in modern history? It was doomed to fail in certain sects. You can’t please everyone. And because we did grow up with this, I think there is a certain ownership fans have towards Star Wars. I respect that. But I also think that some fans take it a little far. I think that the vloggers who have made their living just sowing hate is an unbelievably unhealthy thing. Not only for those who watch them but the people making them. That cannot be good on their relationships with people.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

while TLJ has problems, it was built on a flawed film.. TFA.. which is less a story than people around the table calling out lines, images and ideas that feel STar Warsy.. it's Star Wars tropes.. but without the bottom a real story needs

 

[Crewman6]

while TLJ has problems, it was built on a flawed film.. TFA.. which is less a story than people around the table calling out lines, images and ideas that feel STar Warsy.. it's Star Wars tropes.. but without the bottom a real story needs

What now....wait....hold on....huh...

I...uh...I agree with you.

Crap.

I'm gonna go shower.

 

[Campe]

while TLJ has problems, it was built on a flawed film.. TFA.. which is less a story than people around the table calling out lines, images and ideas that feel STar Warsy.. it's Star Wars tropes.. but without the bottom a real story needs

I don't disagree with the assessment. But despite that, I had a good time with TFA! It was the most fun I had in a Star Wars movie since I was a kid. But it is certainly flawed in a major way.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

We are all fans here.. I know things get dicey here.. but at least we all love Star Trek

And watching Paper Moon after Aron passed away makes me realize that life.. real life.. is the most difficult thing to deal with

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The Force Awakens was too much nostalgia/greatest hits, not enough story for me. But it did make me love Rey and Kylo and Finn and BB8. If it hadn't done that, I wouldn't have seen the Last Jedi in theaters at all, and TLJ is literally the only Star Wars movie I've ever liked enough to see it in theaters multiple times - so that's at least one thing TFA did right.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Also (just an opinion) if the main job of a director is to get the best performances from his actors, TFA is better.. Ridley was really great in early scenes where she was alone or when she was being mind-probed. She is a gifted actress but she needed a good director to help bring her to the fore.. and JJ was able to do that. By comparison, she sounds like a Voyager guest star delivering bone dry boring exposition in TLJ

 

[fireproof78]

See, I'm of the opinion that despite the base melody being like ANH (I won't say an exact rip off and I know that's contentious) what makes it so different for me is the characters, and the flourishes in the set pieces. Everything is just different enough. I had an absolute blast with each character, seeing how the galaxy changed, watching Poe being snarky, Finn struggling with his conscience, and Rey finding her place. Han, despite him not being my favorite character, was in such a powerful place. All of it flowed right in to TLJ which I enjoyed even more for the characters.

They are flawed films and I would have done things a little differently. But those character moments are beautiful.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

For the record, I'm not saying TFA is empty and hollow and nothing but nostalgia - there's a reason I still fell in love with those characters. The heavy handed dose of nostalgia weighs the movie down for me precisely because it feels like it gets in the way of the parts I actually like. There's just too many scenes/visuals that feel like they exist solely to make fans go 'oooh, cool reference', which will never be my experience because I don't really like the old movies much. And in the meantime I'm sitting over here thinking, 'yeah, desert, star destroyer, death star, I get it. Put Rey back on the screen please.'

Maybe this is just me getting a glimpse of how people who don't care about the MCU felt watching Endgame.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe this is just me getting a glimpse of how people who don't care about the MCU felt watching Endgame.

That might be true.

As I said, I very rarely felt "Oh, that's just like this in whatever film." I got hooked in to the ride from the word go. Even after time has past, I turn that movie on and I'm right back in to it.

 

[ScottJ85]

By comparison, she sounds like a Voyager guest star delivering bone dry boring exposition in TLJ

To be completely fair, the first time she speaks its to give Luke a little rehearsed speech she doesn’t really seem to believe herself.

 

[JD]

If you guys won't believe a non FM site belive the seperation in Disney's own blog https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/b...oss-the-disney-family-of-television-networks/

Of course Disney needs to advertise, but the parks just opened, and they have literally no momentum, that tehya re going to now push them on every tv network including CNN? Really.. Sure they CAN do it, but the need to to do it is baffling as the parks just opened, as a new show and the final episode of the movie series is coming out, and yet the buzz is so dismal that they need to spend all this money to create buzz in markets .. when their problem could have been solved by creating better content?

Sure.. but you'd think that a DISNEY THEME PARK JUST OPENED.. A NEW SHOW IS COMING OUT, A NEW MOVIE THAT IS THE CULMINATION OF THE WHOLE FRANCHISE IS COMING OUT, and, with what the CEO said... the fact is SW is sluggish right now, the buzz ain't up to snuff. Just saying. You can believe what you want.

Sorry to go back to this but there was one thing I wanted to point out that is being ignored. The tie ins to this are being incorportated into scripted dramas, and sitcoms, which means this has to have been in the works for quite a while. Those shows would have probably been filmed months ago, so unless they went in and digitally added the Galaxy's Edge stuff in later, which seems unlikely, this had to have been in the works long before the park opened.
And most of the stuff in the scripted show is probably going to be fairly insignificant, for instance I noticed in the trailer for the new season of The Rookie, Nathan Fillion's character is wearing a Galaxy's Edge T-shirt, I have a feeling that's probably all it's going to be.

 

[Crewman6]

Sorry to go back to this but there was one thing I wanted to point out that is being ignored. The tie ins to this are being incorportated into scripted dramas, and sitcoms, which means this has to have been in the works for quite a while. Those shows would have probably been filmed months ago, so unless they went in and digitally added the Galaxy's Edge stuff in later, which seems unlikely, this had to have been in the works long before the park opened.
And most of the stuff in the scripted show is probably going to be fairly insignificant, for instance I noticed in the trailer for the new season of The Rookie, Nathan Fillion's character is wearing a Galaxy's Edge T-shirt, I have a feeling that's probably all it's going to be.

None of this GE stuff will be as shameless as the Disney World episode of Black-ish from a few seasons ago.

God, that was "synergy" at its absolute worst. Just awful.

 

[EnderAKH]

None of this GE stuff will be as shameless as the Disney World episode of Black-ish from a few seasons ago.

God, that was "synergy" at its absolute worst. Just awful.

I don't know, there was an episode of Sabrina The Teenage Witch (on ABC, Disney's network) where their entire class went to the recently opened Animal Kingdom at Disney World. That one was pretty blatant.
https://sabrinatheteenagewitch.fandom.com/wiki/Disneyworld

 

[Campe]

None of this GE stuff will be as shameless as the Disney World episode of Black-ish from a few seasons ago.

God, that was "synergy" at its absolute worst. Just awful.

Oh god, yeah, they were showing off the FastPasses and concierge service and all of that. It was a little ridiculous. I mean, the one day we saw easily would have been thousands of dollars.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

GE is making the wrong kinds of headlines today
What they don't realize is that it's not Powell's fault/... idk know for sure.. but I can't think of anything Powell could have done that would have caused this.. they could make up something up I guess.
But apparently when the park was in development, Iger saw a few TFA dailies and thought that look so much like SW and instead of incorporating all of SW into his park, he just decided to make it about his trilogy. I think that was a mistake. If the new trilogy was more engrossing.. and measurably more loved by fans, then it was a nifty idea.. but I think that this was a bad move. My opinion.. not stating it as fact. O P I N I O N.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

i understand that a part of it is that people may want to wait until the anniversary year or after it

 

[Campe]

GE is making the wrong kinds of headlines today
What they don't realize is that it's not Powell's fault/... idk know for sure.. but I can't think of anything Powell could have done that would have caused this.. they could make up something up I guess.
But apparently when the park was in development, Iger saw a few TFA dailies and thought that look so much like SW and instead of incorporating all of SW into his park, he just decided to make it about his trilogy. I think that was a mistake. If the new trilogy was more engrossing.. and measurably more loved by fans, then it was a nifty idea.. but I think that this was a bad move. My opinion.. not stating it as fact. O P I N I O N.

As we shouldn't, we don't know the details around her departure. The reports suggest that the position was eliminated and that she is overseeing the transition. Yeah, she might have had a part to play in all of this. It is entirely possible that she suggested the price hike. She may have also, in order to capitalize on the release of Episode IX, rushed Galaxy's Edge to open. Or, it might be that as her position entirely is being eliminated, it was simply deemed unnecessary. It appears her role in this position is about 18 months old with the presidents of each park reporting directly to the Parks Chairman before and after Powell's announcement of leaving. It just seems to me that its a bit strange that GE's underperforming would eliminate not just the person but the position entirely. That ultimately says to me that her position was redundant. But like you, that's just my opinion.