The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[jaime]

This is not a correct statement.

The only thing that TLJ has in common with TESB is that it's the "darker middle chapter", which comes with some overarching stylistic and structural constraints and expectations.

Whilst I would not say it was an outright rip off, it does have far more in common with ESB than that. Especially if you think of Hoth as being the end of TFA.

We have our Jedi hero split off from her friends to go training, coming back early when she realises they are in trouble.
We have a separate twosome, (who get a romance sub-plot) go off to a commerce place in search of the help of a recommended friend, who then turns and betrays them.
Then we get a remixed hoth (on the run from a discovered base, complete with walkers) and end with characters in medical crisis as a result, one of the heroes possibly gone forever.
We even get a bacta suit at the beginning in place of a bacta tank.

There is a LOT of ESB in TLJ. With a smattering of ROTJ with the throne room fight.

As I said, I am not saying it’s an out and out rip off...but it’s a bit of a remix shall we say?

 

[DonIago]

^Possibly the most interesting post I've seen in this thread in a long time. I'll admit that some of those similarities didn't occur to me.

 

[JD]

Yeah, there are some similarities there, but still not the same extreme as TFA.

 

[DigificWriter]

I would make the argument that the similarities in TLJ are there because of its nature as a "darker middle chapter" and not anything specifically 'aping' TESB, but even if you want to go down that discussion route, there's really not anything wrong - on a base level - with there being structural and narrative 'rhyming' between TESB and TLJ because that's one of the key features of SW; the problem with TFA, as has been noted by me numerous times, isn't that it was a 'rehash' of A New Hope; the problem lies in the reasoning behind making it a 'rehash' of ANH and the way in which that was accomplished; instead of there being nuance and thematic meaning behind the similarities between ANH and TFA, the similarities exist purely for the most superficial of reasons and don't actually add anything to the overall tapestry of the SW "Skywalker Saga" films.

 

[Set Harth]

Whilst I would not say it was an outright rip off, it does have far more in common with ESB than that. Especially if you think of Hoth as being the end of TFA.

We have our Jedi hero split off from her friends to go training, coming back early when she realises they are in trouble.
We have a separate twosome, (who get a romance sub-plot) go off to a commerce place in search of the help of a recommended friend, who then turns and betrays them.
Then we get a remixed hoth (on the run from a discovered base, complete with walkers) and end with characters in medical crisis as a result, one of the heroes possibly gone forever.
We even get a bacta suit at the beginning in place of a bacta tank.

In one plotline, a would-be Jedi student goes to a remote unknown planet ( with a dark side cave! ) to train under a Jedi master who initially appears reluctant to train them.
In the other plotline, the would-be Jedi's rebel friends are constantly being chased by the Empire and they can't go into hyperspace.

Nope, no similarity to TESB to see here! Just a "darker middle chapter", move along.

 

[Masiral]

Obi-Wan Kenobi picks up a Skywalker on Tatooine, they rescue a female royal, a Jedi mentor is killed by a Sith, Skywalker saves the day by blowing up a big space station with the lucky firing of two torpedoes from his starfighter with Artoo as his co-pilot, and it all ends with a big ceremony where the female royal smiles at Artoo as he rocks back and forth and beeps.

Which movie did I just describe: A New Hope, or The Phantom Menace? See, Lucas did it too.

 

[Gaith]

Which movie did I just describe: A New Hope, or The Phantom Menace? See, Lucas did it too.

A) And most Star Wars fans agree the PT movies are, despite some strong elements, pretty bad.

B) Plot recycling is generally more obnoxious when it takes place after, rather than before, the first iteration of the tropes in question. Especially when one introduces a new Death Star in the very first sequel, timeline-wise, to the prior latest appearance of such a plot point.

C) At least the Nemoidians were trying to stage a hostile takeover of Naboo, rather than blow it up in one shot. But "Starkiller" is literally the two words of "Death Star" with the order reversed, and an extremely similar word swapped in. Even by Lucas' rhyming story cycles scheme, that's some lazy regurgitation.

 

[Masiral]

A) And most Star Wars fans agree the PT movies are, despite some strong elements, pretty bad.

Not true. An entire generation has grown up loving the prequels.

B) Plot recycling is generally more obnoxious when it takes place after, rather than before, the first iteration of the tropes in question. Especially when one introduces a new Death Star in the very first sequel, timeline-wise, to the prior latest appearance of such a plot point.

This is some weird semantic gymnastics you're doing here. TFA came out more than 2 decades after ROTJ. And come on, everyone is trying to build the next bigger, better way to kill a lot of people. It's been that way since someone discovered you could smash someone's head in with a rock. Of course the First Order is gonna make a more super stupendous and awesome weapon than the Empire - being more amazing and awesome than the Empire is their whole shtick.

C) At least the Nemoidians were trying to stage a hostile takeover of Naboo, rather than blow it up in one shot. But "Starkiller" is literally the two words of "Death Star" with the order reversed, and an extremely similar word swapped in. Even by Lucas' rhyming story cycles scheme, that's some lazy regurgitation.

Again, the progression of time and technology, and the First Order trying to do everything the Empire did, but bigger and better.

 

[jaime]

A) And most Star Wars fans agree the PT movies are, despite some strong elements, pretty bad.

B) Plot recycling is generally more obnoxious when it takes place after, rather than before, the first iteration of the tropes in question. Especially when one introduces a new Death Star in the very first sequel, timeline-wise, to the prior latest appearance of such a plot point.

C) At least the Nemoidians were trying to stage a hostile takeover of Naboo, rather than blow it up in one shot. But "Starkiller" is literally the two words of "Death Star" with the order reversed, and an extremely similar word swapped in. Even by Lucas' rhyming story cycles scheme, that's some lazy regurgitation.

Not to mention, it’s the same writer (Lucas) and more importantly overall creator of the overall story, using repetition in a deliberately thematic way. The Fathers journey echoing the sons (well chronologically the other way) is a thing that makes thematic sense. (In short, you can get away with it more if Rey was a Skywalker.) More importantly, there is more that is different everywhere else in TPM.

 

[DigificWriter]

Star Wars has always 'rhymed', so, again, TFA's issue isn't that it 'rehashes' ANH; its issue is that it's rehashing things for the sake of rehashing them in an effort to recapture something that can't be recaptured emotionally.

Abrams and Kasdan did end up backing their way into the franchise's thematic rhyming with things like Han's death, but that's not what their intent was. If it had been, TFA mirroring ANH wouldn't feel as egregious as it does.

 

[jaime]

Star Wars has always 'rhymed', so, again, TFA's issue isn't that it 'rehashes' ANH; its issue is that it's rehashing things for the sake of rehashing them in an effort to recapture something that can't be recaptured emotionally.

Abrams and Kasdan did end up backing their way into the franchise's thematic rhyming with things like Han's death, but that's not what their intent was. If it had been, TFA mirroring ANH wouldn't feel as egregious as it does.

I think that’s the thing about changing author....Lucas could make it rhyme, but these guys are a cover band and made a limerick. By accident and by committee.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Johnson set out to both intentionally include the franchise's thematic rhyming and subvert people's expectations of what the story was and where it was going, so this comment isn't really true.

Abrams is a good storyteller, but his understanding of Star Wars is not as thematically deep as it needed to be in order for TFA to work both independently and as part of a cohesive thematic whole.

Having said that, though, I'm not as worried about TRoS as I was about TFA because of the fact that Abrams has gone on record stating that TRoS wraps up the "Skywalker Saga" and takes into account all previous 8 films, which leads me to believe that his own personal deficiencies in understanding the Saga's deeper themes have been compensated for to a greater degree than they were on TFA.

 

[jaime]

^ Johnson set out to both intentionally include the franchise's thematic rhyming and subvert people's expectations of what the story was and where it was going, so this comment isn't really true.

Abrams is a good storyteller, but his understanding of Star Wars is not as thematically deep as it needed to be in order for TFA to work both independently and as part of a cohesive thematic whole.

Having said that, though, I'm not as worried about TRoS as I was about TFA because of the fact that Abrams has gone on record stating that TRoS wraps up the "Skywalker Saga" and takes into account all previous 8 films, which leads me to believe that his own personal deficiencies in understanding the Saga's deeper themes have been compensated for to a greater degree than they were on TFA.

I am in no way as harsh on the new films as some, I even like them, for the most part.
But no.
Johnson doesn’t get it at all.
Abrams probably does have a better sense of Star Wars tbh.
At the very least he has a feel for it.
Subverting expectations, despite years of media studies obsessed edge Lords, is not automatically a good thing. As the place serving meat free food to people who were led to expect meat in their food are now finding out. For one totally unrelated, yet thematically accurate, example.
Subverting expectations can just be a way of misleading your customer or audience, and you better be providing something better than they expected if you want to get away with it.

 

[DigificWriter]

I am in no way as harsh on the new films as some, I even like them, for the most part.
But no.
Johnson doesn’t get it at all.
Abrams probably does have a better sense of Star Wars tbh.
At the very least he has a feel for it.
Subverting expectations, despite years of media studies obsessed edge Lords, is not automatically a good thing. As the place serving meat free food to people who were led to expect meat in their food are now finding out. For one totally unrelated, yet thematically accurate, example.
Subverting expectations can just be a way of misleading your customer or audience, and you better be providing something better than they expected if you want to get away with it.

The only reason that what Johnson did with TLJ - a script that was universally praised by pretty much all of Lucasfilm from Kathleen Kennedy on down - is divisive is that people refused to accept that the nearly 2 years of Johnson himself, Daisy Ridley, Pablo Hidalgo, and others systematically debunking or otherwise trying to downplay certain fan theories about where the Sequel Trilogy's story was going was legitimate.

TLJ is the only film in the Sequel Trilogy that was completely 100% problem-free, and it's because he not only understood the broader thematic tapestry of the SW franchise as a whole without having to have his hands held, but also offered a subversion of some of those thematic 'tropes' in a way that wasn't disruptive.

 

[jaime]

The only reason that what Johnson did with TLJ - a script that was universally praised by pretty much all of Lucasfilm from Kathleen Kennedy on down - is divisive is that people refused to accept that the nearly 2 years of Johnson himself, Daisy Ridley, Pablo Hidalgo, and others systematically debunking or otherwise trying to downplay certain fan theories about where the Sequel Trilogy's story was going was legitimate.

TLJ is the only film in the Sequel Trilogy that was completely 100% problem-free, and it's because he not only understood the broader thematic tapestry of the SW franchise as a whole without having to have his hands held, but also offered a subversion of some of those thematic 'tropes' in a way that wasn't disruptive.

That’s...quite the statement.
I would argue he didn’t have a clue, and built the whole thing on subversions, few of which worked. Not least because if you subvert everything you can, it just looks like someone flicking switches for the hell of it. (Luke is a grumpy bastard! Luke throws away the sabre people were killing to get their hands on! The not-rebels-but-rebels didn’t get away safely! Luke dies! Snoke is wiped out with no explanation! Poe isn’t a hero! Nor is Finn — ok Finn has always been human Threepio — it’s not really any kind of galactic civil war because there’s a planet of rich people basically helping it along untouched by it! The hacker is a baddie, bet no one saw that coming! Reys parents are unimportant!)
Nothing is really subverted, because the film, for all its fun, almost exists in stasis...huge things happen, but nothing changes very much between its beginning and end. We start on the run, we end on the run, no one has found out much p, no one has developed much (apart from Finn to be fair..he’s fighting fairly voluntary to save others, and gets a kiss from a Rose. He’s seal.) there’s a change of management in the first order, but...well, kylo was already the big bad right? Oh...and it subverted my expectations by having Artois and Threepio, particularly, just there as set dressing. But TFA did that too.

Here’s a question...if Rey turns out to be Obi Wans kid, who hatched from a test tube where she was frozen on Jakku, or some other thing that links her back into the family Drama Star Wars always has been, Will it be getting something wrong or just subverting your expectations?

I mean TLJ subverted my expectations by not being as shite as it looked on paper or after the reactions to it. But I am not gonna pretend that Johnson came down from Mount Lucasfilm with Reys from his head.

 

[Sci-fi fan]

BEN SOLO MURDERED HIS OWN FATHER. I'm not surprised Leia thought he was beyond redemption.

Don't be naive. Anakin decapitated little children with a sword.
In general the rewrite is total nonsense and a disgrace.
edit: Hell, they even subtitled the original movie A New Hope to underline Luke, and specifically Luke, was a symbol of hope. Whoever rewrote his character has no clue what that character meant for the franchise and whoever accepts his character as someone who gives up on a young student that might turn out evil should be called out as incapable to continue the saga. They didn't even imply severe psychological trauma that could lead to that so they have zero excuses.

 

[Sci-fi fan]

I mean TLJ subverted my expectations by not being as shite as it looked on paper or after the reactions to it. But I am not gonna pretend that Johnson came down from Mount Lucasfilm with Reys from his head.

The only "subversion of expectations" I got from the tlj writing is that it wasn't just like tfa, a soft-reboot aimed to be comfy but ultimately uninspired, where Disney excels at, getting old tired stories but at least making them comfy. Run away if you want originality.
When they try originality we tend to get monstrosities like that, that give the impression they come from a deranged madman or a fool. I wonder if he even watched the original trilogy before he sat down to write tlj. Was it too long for him? Would it be too much time spent that could be used on tlj? What a total nonsense it turned out to be. I can't get over the fact there is no reason for the Resistance or the "Good side" to even exist. We went from giving a chance to the most evil and dangerous person to be redeemed and ultimately proving it can be done, to a jedi that gave up even on a student because there was a chance to turn evil, and his own mother giving up on him, and she supposedly had the light side with her. Absolute nonsense. Why do we even have resistance against the dark side then Rian? To just play pew-pew?
Disney, either keep doing what you're doing, rehashing old tired ideas with soft-reboots and turning them comfy or let them live on their own if you want originality. The corporate machine is incapable to produce originality by committee or by random chance.
I start getting the impression that sadly Disney is right now too big to not be evil. They are big enough to be incapable to not hurt the franchises they purchase. Sure, they may be better than letting them die but you never know if something could live on its own.
In any case, people should start supporting more franchises that are new, original and as indie as possible. Supporting the soft-rebooting (or even worse in the case of tlj) of old franchises by mega-conglomerates won't get the genre far.

 

[fireproof78]

. We went from giving a chance to the most evil and dangerous person to be redeemed and ultimately proving it can be done, to a jedi that gave up even on a student because there was a chance to turn evil, and his own mother giving up on him, and she supposedly had the light side with her. Absolute nonsense.

Luke didn't know Anakin. He believed that he could change without knowing all the evil.

Luke saw the evil within Ben up close and personal. Leia felt the death of Han by her son's hand. It is very human to feel very defeated after that. Also, Luke didn't give up on Ben. Luke gave up on himself. After several years of being told "you're the only hope!" that would wear down anyone. Sorry, Luke isn't superhuman and treating like he can't fail is just cultivating disappointment.

In any case, people should start supporting more franchises that are new, original and as indie as possible.

There is no should here. People can support what they like.

 

[Sci-fi fan]

Luke didn't know Anakin. He believed that he could change without knowing all the evil.

You basically called the entire original trilogy a mistake. "HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW EVIL VADER REALLY WAS GUYS, LUKE SHOULD NEVER BE THAT HOPEFUL."
I hope you never rewrite Star Wars either. I guess that's the kind of lame excuses Rian had on his mind to write total nonsense.

Besides, by knowing the conclusion of the redemption of Anakin, Luke now has absolute proof Ben can be redeemed too and in fact even more easily since he is shown pretty obviously less evil than Anakin. So even if that silly argument made sense, it wouldn't even have any power anymore, after the conclusion of the original saga.

 

[fireproof78]

You basically called the entire original trilogy a mistake. "HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW EVIL VADER REALLY WAS GUYS, HE WOULD NEVER BE REDEEMED."

Nope.

I hope you never rewrite Star Wars either. I guess that's the kind of lame excuses Ryan had on his mind to write total nonsense.

Also, no.

Besides, by knowing the conclusion of the redemption of Anakin, Luke now has absolute proof Ben can be redeemed too and in fact even more easily since he is shown pretty obviously less evil than Anakin. So even if that silly argument made sense, it wouldn't even have any power anymore, after the conclusion of the original saga

With due respect, this clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of human psychology. So, Luke might have all the proof in the world but his emotions are ones of depression and failure. Sorry if depression makes people very negative in their viewpoint, even in light of evidence.