The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[jaime]

And again, there is a personal weight to it that Luke didn't have in the OT. In the OT, Luke is pretty much the clean up crew sorting out other people's problems, navigating the failures of the prior generation, while going through his own personal journey.

In the ST, he feels that he, and he alone, is the sole responsible one, resulting in that failure being felt more deeply, more personally, and far more on his shoulders. Even in ESB he is asking "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" There is a lot of personal reflection, but the level of personal responsibility is not as high as in the ST.

It doesn't, in my opinion, due a "hatchet job" to the OT heroes. It takes them in to a deeper path than before.


It actually is more in line with some classic stories, in particular, Beowulf. Beowulf actually consists of three stories, and in the last one, Beowulf is defeated and a younger hero has to rise up to defeat the monster.

I'll not sit there and pretend that it's perfect in the ST, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it makes no sense to me.

For sure. Jason died when the Argo fell on his head. But they already did the hero killing with Han. You don’t get two obi wans, it starts to look careless.

I disagree with that statement about Luke though, he spent possibly years, certainly months, putting together a plan that risked the safety of the Galaxy (because by this point he knows it’s up to him to face Vader, even if he hasn’t been told it) the legacy of the Jedi and the lives of his friends....to save one friend. Han Solo. Because he felt responsible, because Vader had captured them to set a trap for him.
So he’s had that weight before.
And more.

 

[Campe]

I feel that the 23-year old Luke of the OT had something that the 54-year old Luke of the ST did not have.

Hope.

In the midst of some incredible tragedies, Luke was able to come into his own and save the galaxy by redeeming his father. No one questions his greatness in the slightest. But, time, the weight of age, a galaxy in continued turmoil, the need from the galaxy of a hero of his supposed ilk and his failures, over time are enough to change anyone and destroy that hope. At the end of the day, with that much pressure put on him not only from the galaxy, but from himself, there is a certain of amount of emotional exhaustion that can overtake anyone -- even the great Luke Skywalker.

Like others have said, I'm not suggesting that it couldn't have been portrayed a little better. (I enjoy the sequel trilogy. I do not believe for one moment its flawless.) I just believe a viewer can make that connection by what is presented on screen.

 

[BillJ]

In the midst of some incredible tragedies, Luke was able to come into his own and save the galaxy by redeeming his father. No one questions his greatness in the slightest. But, time, the weight of age, a galaxy in continued turmoil, the need from the galaxy of a hero of his supposed ilk and his failures, over time are enough to change anyone and destroy that hope. At the end of the day, with that much pressure put on him not only from the galaxy, but from himself, there is a certain of amount of emotional exhaustion that can overtake anyone -- even the great Luke Skywalker.

Imagine how devastating it was to realize that for all he did, very little in the galaxy actually changed.

 

[Campe]

Imagine how devastating it was to realize that for all he did, very little in the galaxy actually changed.

Might drive someone to a life of solitude and consider taking their own life.

 

[fireproof78]

I disagree with that statement about Luke though, he spent possibly years, certainly months, putting together a plan that risked the safety of the Galaxy (because by this point he knows it’s up to him to face Vader, even if he hasn’t been told it) the legacy of the Jedi and the lives of his friends....to save one friend. Han Solo. Because he felt responsible, because Vader had captured them to set a trap for him.
So he’s had that weight before.
And more.

But not in the same way, not with that level of responsibility. Feeling like he had let the entire Jedi Order and the Galaxy down because of his mistake? That's a huge weight to carry around. To have the failure come from within his own family makes it even more devastating.

 

[Gaith]

Could the ST have laid it out better? I think the fact that we are discussing says "Yes." But, do I think there is enough there to lay that foundation? I think absolutely.

I disagree with the idea that Luke would have seriously considered attacking his own nephew while he slept, but at least it's a choice RJ made, and he committed to it, which I respect.

What pisses me off is that we've been given absolutely zero reason, apart from maybe genetics and/or Sith hypnosis on Snoke's part, why Ben Solo would be so tempted by the Dark Side to begin with. I may have had some angsty moments as a teen, but I was never even remotely intrigued by the idea of becoming a neo-Nazi and/or school shooter. There's a chasm of an unexplained motivation behind what's now the ST's big bad across nearly five hour s of screen time - and that, IMO, is crappy writing indeed.

 

[jaime]

I disagree with the idea that Luke would have seriously considered attacking his own nephew while he slept, but at least it's a choice RJ made, and he committed to it, which I respect.

What pisses me off is that we've been given absolutely zero reason, apart from maybe genetics and/or Sith hypnosis on Snoke's part, why Ben Solo would be so tempted by the Dark Side to begin with. I may have had some angsty moments as a teen, but I was never even remotely intrigued by the idea of becoming a neo-Nazi and/or school shooter. There's a chasm of an unexplained motivation behind what's now the ST's big bad across nearly five hour s of screen time - and that, IMO, is crappy writing indeed.

Anakin fell because he was afraid of losing what love he had, losing family, compromised by a secret, and having already lived a life of struggle (to an extent, he was a very comfy slave) and loss (his mother)

The prototype Ben Solo, Jacen, went through a war, possession, loss of his younger brother, a change in faith (which may have been manipulated, and tends towards the grey side of the force...which doesn’t exist.) and then through similar experiences to Anakin (a secret family) whilst being determined to only do good and protect people by being strong. He also watched his grandfathers fall through some funky force time travel, and with every dark step he took, he convinced himself it was necessary for the greater good until his true self just warped and vanished into Darth Caedus. He was eventually killed by his twin sister, having nearly killed his parents, killed his aunt, and broke Luke. Or nearly.

Kylo Ren...isn’t a darth, and fell in with a bad crowd.

It is a bit whiff, and I think they are hoping we will fill in the blanks by remembering Jacen if we need to.

 

[jaime]

But not in the same way, not with that level of responsibility. Feeling like he had let the entire Jedi Order and the Galaxy down because of his mistake? That's a huge weight to carry around. To have the failure come from within his own family makes it even more devastating.

I don’t know. He wrestled with exactly that in the throne room before Vader stepped in.
I am soft on the films, but you really have to avert your gaze from the nuance in this batch.

 

[fireproof78]

I don’t know. He wrestled with exactly that in the throne room before Vader stepped in.
I am soft on the films, but you really have to avert your gaze from the nuance in this batch.

Agree to disagree then. I don't avert my gaze. I stare right in to the wonderful psychological struggles of these characters.

Yes, I get it, this isn't what the OT was all about, but I think that Lucas opened it up with the PT, regardless of execution. I think that Luke's journey is both a natural outgrowth of fantasy tropes, as well as a deeply human struggle, just like Rey, and Finn and the rest.

Is it how I would have done it? Not by a long shot. But, I'm along for the ride, nuance, bumps and all.

It is a bit whiff, and I think they are hoping we will fill in the blanks by remembering Jacen if we need to.

If they are hoping that then they are failing with me.

 

[Gaith]

It is a bit whiff, and I think they are hoping we will fill in the blanks by remembering Jacen if we need to.

No, the Disney-Lucasfilm brass making these movies have zero expectation, let alone hope, that general audiences remember the EU at all.

It's much simpler: they wanted Ep. 7 to feel as familiar as possible, so they needed a bad Skywalker. Making Luke evil would have directly antagonized a large chunk of the audience, so they made his brand-new nephew evil instead. And, because evil characters are kind of a bummer, they focused on their pretty and fun new girl and boy heroes, and the audience's eagerness to see Harrison Ford again.

They hoped that general audiences would be too drunk on all the nostalgia and familiar story beats to realize that they were too lazy to write a villain with any kind of discernible motivation. They merely evoked tropes of toxic masculinity and the sort of young school shooters/mass killers we've become all too familiar with, and hired a talented young actor to play a conflict they didn't bother to write, and hoped this would be enough for most.

It worked beautifully.

 

[JD]

I think its worth keeping in mind that we do have one more movie, so there's a pretty good chance we might find out a bit more about what exactly lead to Ben Solo's transformation into Kylo Ren. If not, then we are getting The Rise of Kylo Ren, a four part comic book miniseries focused on Ben Solo's transformation into Kylo Ren.
My theory right now, is that we will get some more flashbacks and discussion of what led to Ben's fall to the Dark Side in The Rise of Skywalker, and then we will get that and the bits and pieces we got in TFA and TLJ all combined and fleshed out in the comic. That feels like to big of a story to leave entirely to the comics.

 

[DigificWriter]

I think its worth keeping in mind that we do have one more movie, so there's a pretty good chance we might find out a bit more about what exactly lead to Ben Solo's transformation into Kylo Ren. If not, then we are getting The Rise of Kylo Ren, a four part comic book miniseries focused on Ben Solo's transformation into Kylo Ren.
My theory right now, is that we will get some more flashbacks and discussion of what led to Ben's fall to the Dark Side in The Rise of Skywalker, and then we will get that and the bits and pieces we got in TFA and TLJ all combined and fleshed out in the comic. That feels like to big of a story to leave entirely to the comics.

Lucasfilm is using the Ancillary Canon to tell stories and provide information that won't be covered onscreen but that is important to the overall narrative tapestry of the franchise even if some people won't ever discover it.

 

[Set Harth]

I may have had some angsty moments as a teen, but I was never even remotely intrigued by the idea of becoming a neo-Nazi and/or school shooter.

On the other hand, you're not a Skywalker, you have 0 midichlorians, and the Force isn't real.

 

[Gaith]

I think its worth keeping in mind that we do have one more movie, so there's a pretty good chance we might find out a bit more about what exactly lead to Ben Solo's transformation into Kylo Ren.

Meh, but it's too late - we've already had five hours of ST movies, a lot of which has centered around Kylo's inner conflict, which we've had no good reason for fifty percent of. Bad writing.

Moreover, Abrams and Johnson have painted themselves into a corner - Kylo had to have been seduced by Snoke via Force chats, as that's what TFA established, but whatever pain Ben Solo had that made him susceptible to eeeeevil must have been super-subtle, or Luke, who can sense emotions in his immediate family members, wouldn't have been completely surprised by it. Basically, the only plausible answer is Snoke mind-controlled him into going bad. Which is, again, crap writing from a character standpoint, but it at least makes some degree of logical sense.

A month or so ago, Dan Murrell of Screen Junkies predicted that Kylo will redeem himself at the end of the next movie, while conveniently getting mortally wounded of course, and that he'll have a big, rousing, applause-moment line of saying "My... name... is... BEN!" Myself, I wouldn't be the least surprised.

(And no, I don't give a shit about any necessary backstory belatedly answered in a comic book.)

 

[thribs]

Kylo needs to die in between the movies. Say that he tripped and fell on his saber.
Let’s have a proper villain for the final movie.

 

[jaime]

No, the Disney-Lucasfilm brass making these movies have zero expectation, let alone hope, that general audiences remember the EU at all.

It's much simpler: they wanted Ep. 7 to feel as familiar as possible, so they needed a bad Skywalker. Making Luke evil would have directly antagonized a large chunk of the audience, so they made his brand-new nephew evil instead. And, because evil characters are kind of a bummer, they focused on their pretty and fun new girl and boy heroes, and the audience's eagerness to see Harrison Ford again.

They hoped that general audiences would be too drunk on all the nostalgia and familiar story beats to realize that they were too lazy to write a villain with any kind of discernible motivation. They merely evoked tropes of toxic masculinity and the sort of young school shooters/mass killers we've become all too familiar with, and hired a talented young actor to play a conflict they didn't bother to write, and hoped this would be enough for most.

It worked beautifully.

I didn’t mean general audiences, but yes.
I think there’s also the fact Vader didn’t have much backstory when we met him...but it hasn’t really been filled in enough in TLJ, so it’s not working because (a) he’s closer to Anakin than Vader and (b) he’s the son of the Solos, só you kind need more the ‘ooh he’s bad’ like Mufasa.

 

[jaime]

Lucasfilm is using the Ancillary Canon to tell stories and provide information that won't be covered onscreen but that is important to the overall narrative tapestry of the franchise even if some people won't ever discover it.

I played Enter The Matrix.
It worked about as well then as it is here.

 

[thribs]

That’s one of the issues with this “everything is canon” motif they have currently. While it’s a good idea they will never put anything interesting into the comics or novels which is why they have been lacking since the rule was set in place.
They’re better of just having a alternate timeline with them.

 

[jaime]

Agree to disagree then. I don't avert my gaze. I stare right in to the wonderful psychological struggles of these characters.

Yes, I get it, this isn't what the OT was all about, but I think that Lucas opened it up with the PT, regardless of execution. I think that Luke's journey is both a natural outgrowth of fantasy tropes, as well as a deeply human struggle, just like Rey, and Finn and the rest.

Is it how I would have done it? Not by a long shot. But, I'm along for the ride, nuance, bumps and all.


If they are hoping that then they are failing with me.

Oh I totally agree to disagree, it’s just fun to talk it through.
I am sort of, kind of, happy..ish...with what we have. I just think it could have, and should have, been better. It’s also not suitable for kids partially cos of its nihilism when viewed as part of the wider saga.

 

[Sci-fi fan]

He didn't have a chance

Luke had a "shaky" moment

there’s a fair bit of ‘unreliable narration’ going on in TLJ

Let's not pretend to have group-amnesia for the sake of supporting tlj. It was very consistently a rewrite of the character and it was not in any stretch of the imagination a temporary lapse.

The movie is not just the jedi-school scene. He later on consistently and explicitly gave up on Ben when he explicitly never gave up on Anakin even when Anakin himself told him to leave him alone multiple times. The most nonsensical part is that he had already proven a very dangerous evil person can be redeemed so he would never give up for a student that had a chance to be evil, not even after getting a bit stronger.

His own mother gives up on Ben in this nonsensical story when she supposedly has the good force on her side. Even if we stretched it that the good side is now evil or neutral, that makes the Resistance make no sense at all: The culmination of the good side is to forgive your friends even when they falter. If you only think revenge or destruction of the opponent there is little difference with the dark side. Why do we even fight the Empire-wannabies then? To show pew-pew and sell toys? It looks like it.

I find it ~60% certain that Abrams will rewrite this nonsense because anyone with a basic understanding of what was the heart of the original trilogy (the "redeemer Luke") will know that tlj turns the saga into absolute nonsense or at least an uninteresting money grab for selling toys and a nostalgia-baiter about surface-over-substance lightsaber fights.

Sure, you can stretch it all you want, that supposedly Luke changed (that could only be done with severe, very severe, trauma(because he already proved even worse people than Ben can be redeemed) but such a severe trauma was not even implied) or that Leia is now a hag that can't forgive her own son, turning her effectively either evil or at most neutral, but that would make the original saga make no sense, and the story be much weaker and uninteresting, the Resistance have no reason to exist since it's no longer the "good side" and the franchise becomes mainly what Disney really profits from, toy selling and baiting nostalgia with surface-over-substance imagery.