The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[Sci-fi fan]

this clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of human psychology

That's hypocritical because part of the nonsense of the Rian rewrite of the character is PRECISELY BECAUSE IT MAKES NO PSYCHOLOGICAL SENSE. As I had said multiple times, it could be stretched that he could have such a dramatic change, but only after severe psychological trauma BUT THEY NEVER EVEN IMPLIED THAT.

And you know what? Apart from being nonsense, it's also narratively destructive anyway. The entire original saga had its heart at the new hope that Luke brought that culminated with the redemption of Anakin. Contaminating that by turning Luke ...yes, practically evil, makes the entire movement make no sense at all.

i.e. why the hell is there even a "Resistance" if everyone gives up on their friends when they falter? The culmination of the good side is to forgive especially when it's hard to forgive. Why is there even a fight, Rian, if they are all on the same side now? To only show pew-pew?

I'm pretty sure Abrams may rewrite again the nonsense of the rewrite of Rian, but that doesn't make tlj a good movie.

 

[Campe]

hypocritical

rewrite

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[jaime]

The only "subversion of expectations" I got from the tlj writing is that it wasn't just like tfa, a soft-reboot aimed to be comfy but ultimately uninspired, where Disney excels at, getting old tired stories but at least making them comfy. Run away if you want originality.
When they try originality we tend to get monstrosities like that, that give the impression they come from a deranged madman or a fool. I wonder if he even watched the original trilogy before he sat down to write tlj. Was it too long for him? Would it be too much time spent that could be used on tlj? What a total nonsense it turned out to be. I can't get over the fact there is no reason for the Resistance or the "Good side" to even exist. We went from giving a chance to the most evil and dangerous person to be redeemed and ultimately proving it can be done, to a jedi that gave up even on a student because there was a chance to turn evil, and his own mother giving up on him, and she supposedly had the light side with her. Absolute nonsense. Why do we even have resistance against the dark side then Rian? To just play pew-pew?
Disney, either keep doing what you're doing, rehashing old tired ideas with soft-reboots and turning them comfy or let them live on their own if you want originality. The corporate machine is incapable to produce originality by committee or by random chance.
I start getting the impression that sadly Disney is right now too big to not be evil. They are big enough to be incapable to not hurt the franchises they purchase. Sure, they may be better than letting them die but you never know if something could live on its own.
In any case, people should start supporting more franchises that are new, original and as indie as possible. Supporting the soft-rebooting (or even worse in the case of tlj) of old franchises by mega-conglomerates won't get the genre far.

You know, I hadn’t even thought of it in those terms...Luke believed there was good in Vader even after everything.
But he didn’t in Ben?
That...really is pretty shaky. You are right.

 

[fireproof78]

You know, I hadn’t even thought of it in those terms...Luke believed there was good in Vader even after everything.
But he didn’t in Ben?
That...really is pretty shaky. You are right.

He didn't have a chance to. He reacted, briefly, to the growing Darkness, hesitated, saw his nephew again and was attacked. Afterwards, he saw his school burning and dead students.

I guess I struggle on the other side. Luke faces a crushing defeat of all that he was supposed to create and is supposed to just shake it off and believe the Jedi can continue? How does that make sense? That's...pretty shaky.

 

[Campe]

You know, I hadn’t even thought of it in those terms...Luke believed there was good in Vader even after everything.
But he didn’t in Ben?
That...really is pretty shaky. You are right.

Luke had a "shaky" moment in ROTJ where he almost killed Vader. Seeing him have another with Ben, which as @fireproof78 suggests, he stopped short. Just like with Vader. At the end of the day, Luke did as he always does... feels first, thinks second.

 

[jaime]

Luke had a "shaky" moment in ROTJ where he almost killed Vader. Seeing him have another with Ben, which as @fireproof78 suggests, he stopped short. Just like with Vader. At the end of the day, Luke did as he always does... feels first, thinks second.

There’s a difference between shaky when in battle with the guy and shaky when walking into tent. Though there’s a fair bit of ‘unreliable narration’ going on in TLJ anyway.

 

[EnderAKH]

There’s a difference between shaky when in battle with the guy and shaky when walking into tent. Though there’s a fair bit of ‘unreliable narration’ going on in TLJ anyway.

Ok, there you are going to see your nephew. You already know he's hanging around with some sketchy characters, but you're trying to help. When you're there, you open up your senses and are ASSAULTED BY A SUDDEN SENSE OF EVIL AND DARKNESS FLOODING FROM HIM. Light up your lightsaber and get in an attack stance as a reflex to that? HELL. YES. Then he reflected, got his wits about him. IN THAT MOMENT, Ben (already hanging out with shady characters who are poisoning his mind) wakes and sees that sudden reflexive move which seems to validate EVERYTHING the shady people are saying to him. I don't know, that all tracks for me. Maybe it doesn't for others, but it does for me.

 

[jaime]

He didn't have a chance to. He reacted, briefly, to the growing Darkness, hesitated, saw his nephew again and was attacked. Afterwards, he saw his school burning and dead students.

I guess I struggle on the other side. Luke faces a crushing defeat of all that he was supposed to create and is supposed to just shake it off and believe the Jedi can continue? How does that make sense? That's...pretty shaky.

We didn’t see the second happen, so I haven’t really talked about that.
Thing is though...Luke is a hero, Hero with the big aitch even (not a typo for once.) Generally they don’t give up and peg it away. It does make you wonder why he left the map if planned on just vanishing for all time and not return if needed.

The old EU had him refusing to hunt down his nephew (who is so transparently the model for Ren, only he had more of a...logical setup.) even, and especially after, he had tried to turn his son into his apprentice and brought about the death of his wife. He didn’t withdraw all together, or give up. So there’s already an interesting comparison out there.

In terms of still canon stuff, and screen stuff, he didn’t give up after finding out Vader was his father, he didn’t give up after getting maimed, and he didn’t give up on Vader or his ideals when he was staring death in its direct-current fingertips. So I can see how it’s difficult to reconcile that with the specifics of his exile. If he had put himself into exile the way Yoda had (essentially waiting until new Jedi sought him out, because if the Jedi totally fall, there’s nothing left to face the Sith, and they don’t have the power to do it alone.) that makes a little more sense. Except we already know that one or two force users and a power base/military is enough to take and hold the Galaxy for a decade or two (Luke and Leia plus the New republic would be a light side analogue to Palpatine and Vader plus the Empire.) só it all gets a bit odd.
It’s all part of the rush to emulate the rebel/empire dynamic. Not treating the First Order as a threat after the republic knows it has Vader’s grandson gone all sith running around with them?
It’s the wobbly foundation underpinning the sequel trilogy betraying it again, but maybe the can give it so,e wiggle room. Mostly we just ignore it until we can’t anymore.

But no...the Luke stuff is a bit wobbly, and it is a bit like we kind of have to accept it, even if we don’t really think it makes a whole lot of sense. There’s a lot of that...admittedly in Star Wars in general...but particularly in the sequel trilogy.

 

[Campe]

There’s a difference between shaky when in battle with the guy and shaky when walking into tent. Though there’s a fair bit of ‘unreliable narration’ going on in TLJ anyway.

*shrugs* Sometimes, anger gets the best out of people.

Even Jedi Masters.

 

[fireproof78]

We didn’t see the second happen, so I haven’t really talked about that.

I guess this is where I differ. I think it makes perfect sense, with Luke as a character. He isn't responsible for Vader the way he feels responsible for Ben and his students. Even Leia has to remind Han that it wasn't their fault with Ben. But, Luke takes it far more personally, and withdraws away, ashamed of his failure.

Could the ST have laid it out better? I think the fact that we are discussing says "Yes." But, do I think there is enough there to lay that foundation? I think absolutely. And that it works better than it is given credit for.

YMMV.

 

[jaime]

Ok, there you are going to see your nephew. You already know he's hanging around with some sketchy characters, but you're trying to help. When you're there, you open up your senses and are ASSAULTED BY A SUDDEN SENSE OF EVIL AND DARKNESS FLOODING FROM HIM. Light up your lightsaber and get in an attack stance as a reflex to that? HELL. YES. Then he reflected, got his wits about him. IN THAT MOMENT, Ben (already hanging out with shady characters who are poisoning his mind) wakes and sees that sudden reflexive move which seems to validate EVERYTHING the shady people are saying to him. I don't know, that all tracks for me. Maybe it doesn't for others, but it does for me.

Do we know about shady characters? Like I said, I sat through TLJ once, and it’s got two versions of that night to show ‘certain point of view’.
Besides which, my issue isn’t so much with that moment, as with how both characters deal with it. Ben never wonders what was going on, and appears to neither know nor trust his uncle (or parents). Luke, Leia and maybe Han (though there’s a possibility here.) never go looking for him.
The Jedi who walked up to Vader, to try to turn the father her never knew back to the light side....made zero effort to do the same for the man he had probably helped raise?
I am curious about the time frame too I guess. Han gets a lightsaber in the tum for reaching out to his son...but how long had it been left to even try?
It is all a bit...raggedy edges. You have to really really not think about it for it to work.

 

[jaime]

I guess this is where I differ. I think it makes perfect sense, with Luke as a character. He isn't responsible for Vader the way he feels responsible for Ben and his students. Even Leia has to remind Han that it wasn't their fault with Ben. But, Luke takes it far more personally, and withdraws away, ashamed of his failure.

Could the ST have laid it out better? I think the fact that we are discussing says "Yes." But, do I think there is enough there to lay that foundation? I think absolutely. And that it works better than it is given credit for.

YMMV.

Again though...we see Luke confront his failures in the OT. And even Han stopped running from responsibility. And the biggest thing is this isn’t some random Jedi gone bad, it’s family.
It really does a hatchet job on the OT heroes. Maybe if this had all happened in a matter of a week...but it’s years. No wonder Ren is messed up. The heroes of the rebellion would sacrifice themselves for the galaxy, but didn’t even bother to skype or stick photos on blue milk cartons for their own flesh and blood. Given their previous actions, he must only logically assumed they had been replaced by pod people.

 

[Campe]

and it’s got two versions of that night to show ‘certain point of view’.

Three, actually.

Luke's first version, which was an incomplete telling of his side.
Ben's version.
Luke's second version, which is probably the closest we'll get to the "true" version.

 

[jaime]

Three, actually.

Luke's first version, which was an incomplete telling of his side.
Ben's version.
Luke's second version, which is probably the closest we'll get to the "true" version.

Told you it had been a while since I saw it xD

 

[DonIago]

I'm still having trouble with the idea that because Luke screwed up once he can't ever make the same mistake again. Real people do that all the time, and sometimes they even know they're repeating the mistakes of the past.

I'd also say that since nobody in this thread is Force-sensitive, we can't even imagine how intensely Luke may have been affected by what he saw in Ben. I'm not going to say he could get a murder rap dismissed by claiming he'd been under the Force's influence, but given my capacity to react viscerally to things without being Force-sensitive, I can only assume it would be much stronger for him.

 

[jaime]

I'm still having trouble with the idea that because Luke screwed up once he can't ever make the same mistake again. Real people do that all the time, and sometimes they even know they're repeating the mistakes of the past.

But Luke is not a real person. And Star Wars isn’t even close to being a realist text.
Otherwise he would have realistically said ‘sod this for a game of soldiers’ and gone back to moisture farming on tatooine, possibly occasionally looking guiltily over towards Jabbas palace, around the end of Empire if not earlier.
He is a hero, a lost scion, a pauper risen to greatness, a pure of heart squire who finishes the quest etc etc. That’s what the thing is doing.
Many many SF and F films would be very short if they were realistic. Not least as militarily advanced empires with massive resources tend to win unless they come against the same, more often than not.

 

[EnderAKH]

But Luke is not a real person. And Star Wars isn’t even close to being a realist text.
Otherwise he would have realistically said ‘sod this for a game of soldiers’ and gone back to moisture farming on tatooine, possibly occasionally looking guiltily over towards Jabbas palace, around the end of Empire if not earlier.
He is a hero, a lost scion, a pauper risen to greatness, a pure of heart squire who finishes the quest etc etc. That’s what the thing is doing.
Many many SF and F films would be very short if they were realistic. Not least as militarily advanced empires with massive resources tend to win unless they come against the same, more often than not.

You know, maybe this is at the heart of it. The OT is a classic Joseph Campbell Heroes Journey kind of movie, built off of that template. But some movies and directors now tend to try to break that template and craft their movies with slightly more realistic takes on the characters, and maybe that stylistic difference of approaches is why some people have trouble with the dissonance between OT Luke and ST Luke. OT Joseph Campbell Luke would have become a legendary hero, continuously fighting the good fight with no moral failings. ST Luke is more the PTSD ridden grizzled veteran, who has seen it all and become disillusioned by it. He tried, but the world kept letting him down. I guess it comes down to if you can like or accept the newer film-making style.

 

[jaime]

You know, maybe this is at the heart of it. The OT is a classic Joseph Campbell Heroes Journey kind of movie, built off of that template. But some movies and directors now tend to try to break that template and craft their movies with slightly more realistic takes on the characters, and maybe that stylistic difference of approaches is why some people have trouble with the dissonance between OT Luke and ST Luke. OT Joseph Campbell Luke would have become a legendary hero, continuously fighting the good fight with no moral failings. ST Luke is more the PTSD ridden grizzled veteran, who has seen it all and become disillusioned by it. He tried, but the world kept letting him down. I guess it comes down to if you can like or accept the newer film-making style.

There’s definitely an element of that...but the problem is, it’s supposed to be one epic saga. Too much of this and it’s like putting a computer generated screen printed nylon blanket out and stitching it to the Bayeux Tapestry. It almost comes back to the old chestnut of when would someone be better to do their own thing, than work in an existing property.

 

[fireproof78]

Again though...we see Luke confront his failures in the OT. And even Han stopped running from responsibility. And the biggest thing is this isn’t some random Jedi gone bad, it’s family.
It really does a hatchet job on the OT heroes. Maybe if this had all happened in a matter of a week...but it’s years. No wonder Ren is messed up. The heroes of the rebellion would sacrifice themselves for the galaxy, but didn’t even bother to skype or stick photos on blue milk cartons for their own flesh and blood. Given their previous actions, he must only logically assumed they had been replaced by pod people.

And again, there is a personal weight to it that Luke didn't have in the OT. In the OT, Luke is pretty much the clean up crew sorting out other people's problems, navigating the failures of the prior generation, while going through his own personal journey.

In the ST, he feels that he, and he alone, is the sole responsible one, resulting in that failure being felt more deeply, more personally, and far more on his shoulders. Even in ESB he is asking "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" There is a lot of personal reflection, but the level of personal responsibility is not as high as in the ST.

It doesn't, in my opinion, due a "hatchet job" to the OT heroes. It takes them in to a deeper path than before.

ST Luke is more the PTSD ridden grizzled veteran, who has seen it all and become disillusioned by it. He tried, but the world kept letting him down. I guess it comes down to if you can like or accept the newer film-making style.

It actually is more in line with some classic stories, in particular, Beowulf. Beowulf actually consists of three stories, and in the last one, Beowulf is defeated and a younger hero has to rise up to defeat the monster.

I'll not sit there and pretend that it's perfect in the ST, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it makes no sense to me.

 

[Set Harth]

Abrams has gone on record stating that TRoS wraps up the "Skywalker Saga" and takes into account all previous 8 films

You're forgetting at least 3 films, Abrams!