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The lack of a follow-up to "In the Pale Moonlight"

Admiral Valeris said: I don't really think that the ends justify the means, merely that people can always make an exception and that it takes an exceptional individual to adhere to the truth when it's not beneficial to do so. Picard comes to mind.

Absolutely. We're in accord here.

You had said, "The ends justify the means" above, and I took it as a position statement, rather than simply stating the philosophical perspective itself. A bit of miscommunication, it seems; no harm done.

We may still disagree on Sisko, because I'm not inclined to give him any sort of pass, what with his track record, but ... that's another discussion.
 
JM1776 said:
Admiral Valeris said: I don't really think that the ends justify the means, merely that people can always make an exception and that it takes an exceptional individual to adhere to the truth when it's not beneficial to do so. Picard comes to mind.

Absolutely. We're in accord here.

You had said, "The ends justify the means" above, and I took it as a position statement, rather than simply stating the philosophical perspective itself. A bit of miscommunication, it seems; no harm done.

Oops...I should have clarified early on. But, as you said, no harm done. It provided quite the discussion, however. ;)

We may still disagree on Sisko, because I'm not inclined to give him any sort of pass, what with his track record, but ... that's another discussion.

I think that, while his idea of bringing the Romulans into the war and helping the Federation and the Klingons was good (I don't think many will contest that), his "execution" (interesting word choice, I'll admit) of bringing them in was pragmatically sound but terrible in action and deed. Lies, deception, and murder helped to baptize the Alliance.
 
Uriel said:
Picard comes to mind.

Yeah, like when he decloaks the Enterprise in front of the Romulans at the end of The Pegasus. That episode makes for an interesting contrast with ITPM. The stakes aren't the same, but Picard takes a risk to tell the the Romulans the truth, and Sisko takes a risk to tell them a lie.

It would certainly have been interesting to bring Picard into the follow-up. perhaps:
The E-E arrives at DS9 on a 'top secret' mission - Picard has found out what Sisko did and is here to confront him along with some emotionally wrenching Romulan character of some sort - maybe one of the kids of Admiral Jarok. Then the story is about Picard trying to do an Insurrection style tell-all but discovering that neither government responds this time - the lie is beneficial to both sides so no-one wants to undermine it.
Really reaching i know - just getting Picard and the E-E into a DS9 episode for one, and needs some work, but that's how I would have done a sequel if one was done.
 
You're not reaching at all. It's an excellent basis for a story.

As a matter of fact, my proposed sequel, "Moonlight Sonata," is plotted very similarly, but involved my OC ship the USS Liberty, instead of the Enterprise.

Even though the idea's rattled around in my head for some years, I've never gotten around to writing it. Still, it'd make for some compelling drama---assuming you haven't read this thread. :cool:
 
Uriel said:
Picard comes to mind.
Yeah, like when he decloaks the Enterprise in front of the Romulans at the end of The Pegasus. That episode makes for an interesting contrast with ITPM. The stakes aren't the same, but Picard takes a risk to tell the the Romulans the truth, and Sisko takes a risk to tell them a lie.
`Course, for all of Picard's so-called idealism and moral fortitude, note that he had absolutely no problem -- not even a moment's doubt -- in knowingly and deliberately making use of a strictly illegal cloaking device just because that was a little more convenient way to get his ship out of an asteroid with less peril. Apparently, he isn't going to cling so tightly to his principles when they might actually inconvenience him.
 
^In for a penny, in for a pound.

And the situation is different, because Picard gives the cloaking device to the Romulans in violation of orders from Command and an Admiral, because it's the right thing to do.
 
In addition, the Romulans had clearly violated the current cease-fire by intentionally sealing Enterprise-D inside the asteroid. Thus, Picard's decision has a certain poetic elegance to it, in that he both reveals the Federation's bad form, thus restoring Starfleet's honor, while making certain the Romulans do not profit from their calculated malevolence via the destruction (or worse, capture) of his ship and Pressman's.

There is the spirit of the law, and its letter. Picard violated the latter, whilst upholding the former---as any Starfleet officer should.
 
Whereas Sisko violated both, and has shown he has and will do so time and again.

Like using that one toxic liquid on the Maquis planet simply to get back at Eddington, for example.

I would include using the cloaking device in a way as to violate the Romulan Empire's agreement with Starfleet, but he did it during his rescue of the Detapa Council shortly before the Second Federation-Klingon War.
 
Nebusj said:
`Course, for all of Picard's so-called idealism and moral fortitude, note that he had absolutely no problem -- not even a moment's doubt -- in knowingly and deliberately making use of a strictly illegal cloaking device just because that was a little more convenient way to get his ship out of an asteroid with less peril.

It wasn't just "a little more convenient," it was the only safe way of getting out. The purpose of the treaty was to prevent a military application of the cloaking device. Using it to get out of an asteroid and then revealing its existence to the Romulans has the effect of enforcing the treaty, not undermining it.
 
Admiral Valeris said:
^In for a penny, in for a pound.

And the situation is different, because Picard gives the cloaking device to the Romulans in violation of orders from Command and an Admiral, because it's the right thing to do.
On-screen? I don't remember Picard promising anything more than ``a report'', and the script for the episode doesn't give any suggestion that Picard is thinking of giving the secrets over. If it's mentioned in another episode where Picard gave phased-cloaking technology to the Romulans I'd appreciate the cite.

And in any case it doesn't change the situation, which is that Picard has gone to Smug Alert Factor Ten on Pressman for building a highly illegal cloaking device just because Pressman thought it was essential for the Federation's safety, while Picard doesn't mind at all using the highly illegal cloaking device just because Picard thinks it's useful to the Enterprise's convenience.

That this might be the slightest bit hypocritical -- or for that matter just as illegal and just as alarming to the Romulans, who now have proof that the Federation's treaties aren't worth the paper they're printed on thanks to Picard's moves -- never crosses his mind.
 
Uriel said:
It wasn't just "a little more convenient," it was the only safe way of getting out.
Since, with nothing but the resources of a Galaxy-class starship at their disposal, the crew and passengers of the Enterprise could only hold out within their asteroid prison for twenty years before running out of supplies. There's no way to tell whether Pressman's henchlings might be able to spare another starship or two within that time to chase off the Romulans and make good an escape; after all, it took them nearly 72 hours after discovering some part of the Pegasus survived for them to send the Enterprise after it.
The purpose of the treaty was to prevent a military application of the cloaking device. Using it to get out of an asteroid and then revealing its existence to the Romulans has the effect of enforcing the treaty, not undermining it.
The treaty specifies -- and this is about all we get from the episode -- that the Federation will not develop cloaking technology, and that's been the corner of sixty years of peaceful relations between the Federation and the Romulans. So the logic of showing that the Federation had built a cloaking device and was perfectly happy to use it as a means of preserving that treaty escapes me.
 
In one of the Anthologies, either New Frontier or the one about the Dominion War, the stone dude talks about it and hints that when the Romulans did find out they attacked Earth and began the Second Romulan-Earth war.
 
I really wanted a ep were Jake found out. He would be conflicted as to whether or not he should report this news or keep it a secret and go against what a reporter is supose to do. Plus he would be dealing with the revelation that his dad played a role in the murder of Vreenak. COnsider Jake looked up to his dad and loved them how would that emotionally effect him? I think it could have been the best Jake Sisko ep ever and perhaps a ep that changed the Jake/Sisko realtionship forever as well.


Jason
 
No follow up is neccessary. I think that the fact that Sisko carries this burden to his grave is follow up enough.
 
^ :eek:

Good lord, AlphaMan, I've not seen you in MONTHS. I didn't even know you posted here anymore!

Good to see you! :)

And I agree with you about Sisko - I think that the episode is not so much about manipulating the Romulans into the war. That is only the vehicle for the REAL story.

Which is, how does a fundamentally honest man of integrity make the choice between his own principles and the safety of millions? Is it justified to lie and deceive if it's for a 'good cause'? And having made the more pragmatic choice, how does a man of principle *live* with that choice?
 
The question then becomes, "Is Sisko a 'fundamentally honest man of integrity' and 'a man of principle'?"

That's highly debateable, considering a number of his actions throughout the series.

Jayson is correct, in my opinion. Putting a strain on the Benjamin/Jake relationship was something they seemed to avoid on DS9---in large measure, I'd imagine, because Avery Brooks seemed quite leery of any significant, realistic negativity in the father/son interplay as perhaps reflecting on the contemporary black man.
 
JM1776 said:
The question then becomes, "Is Sisko a 'fundamentally honest man of integrity' and 'a man of principle'?"

That's highly debateable, considering a number of his actions throughout the series.

Jayson is correct, in my opinion. Putting a strain on the Benjamin/Jake relationship was something they seemed to avoid on DS9---in large measure, I'd imagine, because Avery Brooks seemed quite leery of any significant, realistic negativity in the father/son interplay as perhaps reflecting on the contemporary black man.
o.k., this is where I jump in.

JM, I think you and a few insistent persons on this board have failed to see Sisko's actions in in ITPM, as well as other episodes like the one where he poisoned the Maquis planet (Blaze of Glory?) in the context of the entirety of Sisko's character arc, struggle and the overarching plot and questions on DS9.

And re the Sisko/Jake relationship: DS9 had plenty of personal and philosophical conflicts. The Sisko/Jake relationship was a nice counterbalance to the rest.
 
OldManDax said:
o.k., this is where I jump in.

JM, I think you and a few insistent persons on this board have failed to see Sisko's actions in in ITPM, as well as other episodes like the one where he poisoned the Maquis planet (Blaze of Glory?) in the context of the entirety of Sisko's character arc, struggle and the overarching plot and questions on DS9.

He starts out in Emissary as an angry, bitter man who has internalized a lot of his feelings. As the series went on he started to change.

He let things get too personal. He poisoned an entire planet to get back at one man who wronged him somewhat. His character became like a combination of Ahab and Inspector Javert at that point. (The episode where he poisons the planet is For The Uniform)

"Look at you. You're going against everything you claim to believe in. And for what? To satisfy a personal vendetta?"
"You betrayed your uniform!"
"And you're betraying yours, right now! The sad part is that you don't even realize it. I feel sorry for you, captain. This obsession with me, look what it's cost you!"
"Major! Shut that thing off! Commander Worf, prepare to launch torpedoes!"
- Eddington and Sisko, on Sisko's decision to use biological weapons on a Maquis colony.

Sisko's actions in In The Pale Moonlight are unacceptable. The reason behind them (the "end") is laudable enough, to a degree, but the way he accomplished it (the "means") are abhorrent. A "fundamentally honest man" and a "man of integrity" most likely would not have gone down the path Sisko did. The fact that he says he can live with it, and that the actions are not referenced again, seems suspicious.

"That's why you came to me, isn't it Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you wanted: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal... and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
-Garak

"So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it... Computer, erase that entire personal log."
-Sisko

Another thing I find suspicious is that he deleted the only evidence there really is in regards to his actions. If he were honest and had integrity, he would have let it be known what he did and take whatever punishment there may have been.


And re the Sisko/Jake relationship: DS9 had plenty of personal and philosophical conflicts. The Sisko/Jake relationship was a nice counterbalance to the rest.

Still, some father/son conflict would have been more realistic.
 
Admiral Valeris said:
He starts out in Emissary as an angry, bitter man who has internalized a lot of his feelings. As the series went on he started to change.

He let things get too personal. He poisoned an entire planet to get back at one man who wronged him somewhat. His character became like a combination of Ahab and Inspector Javert at that point. (The episode where he poisons the planet is For The Uniform)

No. For The Uniform and most of the Maquis episodes took great pains to demonstrate that the Maquis had, by and large, become an incredibly destructive, careless, vainglorious and spiteful group whose constant attempts at vainglory and nonsensical attacks on Cardassian territory had become too much of a liability to all in the Alpha Quadrant. Even Kira, the quintessential freedom fighter, said as much.

What For the Uniform does, as with so many of the best DS9 episodes is show that even politically and militarily "good" decisions can be a mixture of "black and white", that a human who's philosophically right can also have, mixed within his rightness, very human emotions, sometimes to the point of being blinded. Think Kirk in The Search for Spock, for instance. Like FTU, it shows that one normally noble individual can become so blinded by that personal sense of being wronged, that his actions, while technically right and "acceptable", can become less than completely pure.

Make no mistake, though, the verdict of the entirety of the DS9 Maquis eps. - as well as to a lesser extent TNG and VOY - was that the Maquis were a decent idea gone wrong, and thus ultimately had to be stopped - ESPECIALLY during the middle of increasing tensions/threat from the much more organized, shrewd, and ultimately more threatening confederation (note the sad, dark means by which the Maquis were defeated - by the Dominion).

For comparison, imagine if members of the Irish Republican Army were, for some reason, to decide to organize kamikaze attacks against the elected Iraqi civilian government right after the initial vote, as a clumsy strike against Britain for its involvement in Northern Ireland, or if members of the IRA started to infiltrate the British army as soldiers right after the train attacks; or even if Bulgarian "freedom fighters" decided to infiltrate the Russian army during the early days of World War II.

Imagine if it were demonstrated that these respective resistance movements were, time and again, shown to be a loose, somewhat undisciplined confederations of disaffected college kids and/or unemployed middle-aged guys, who were angry because their local factories closed, leaving them unemployed (or even more relevant, because all these "law-breaking illegal immigrants" were taking their job) and looking for some kind of martyrdom. I imagine that Britain, the US and the Nato powers in the first example, and the Allied powers in the second would want them stopped, by any means necessary, and that an experienced, normally noble officer with an awareness of the larger global stakes might employ some very hard-nosed tactics in order to "cut off the legs" of these groups.

Sisko did NOT poison the Maquis planet just out of anger for being betrayed. It was a hard-nosed, drop the gauntlet, this-madness-stops-here action taken to basically cripple them, to make sure they felt some measure of the pain they were causing others, including innocent Cardassians. What the ep. does, however, is show that Sisko's motivations were not without grey areas, which is one of the things DS9 did well. Perhaps, too, Sisko was made a stand-in for what the entirety of Starfleet's anger at the Maquis (remember the end of the TNG episode wherein Ro Laren disobeys Picard to join the Maquis? That scene yelled rage), which is why the "you violated your uniform" speech has extra resonance.

And I imagine that anger for personal betrayal would not be an uncommon emotion for persosn who live and function by military code, or any profession that lives by esprit de corps (police officers, firefighters, etc).

Sisko's actions in In The Pale Moonlight are unacceptable. The reason behind them (the "end") is laudable enough, to a degree, but the way he accomplished it (the "means") are abhorrent. A "fundamentally honest man" and a "man of integrity" most likely would not have gone down the path Sisko did. The fact that he says he can live with it, and that the actions are not referenced again, seems suspicious.

The episode doesn't suggest that his actions are acceptable, for one. The entirety of the episode is set up with a "road to hell is paved with good intentions" subtext, wherein one good man gets caught up in a path that he never thought he'd see himself in, but is not without guilt in that process. It's one good man "Dancing with the Devil In The Pale Moonlight". Entirely within the realm of possibility for normally good people, IMO. Plus you need to watch the beginning of the ep., and really, understand much of the context of Season 6 as a whole - of Sisko as a man who is personally bearing the weight of a great deal of the threat to the AQ, and the Federation response to it, has to be a good warrior and such - but also the very real, visceral pain of human loss and sacrifice. Plus, there is absolutely no QUESTION as to what kind of rule the Dominion would impose on the AQ if they were able to win - we'd already gotten plenty of glimpses into just how vicious and oppressive they could be by the time of ITPM.

So, verdict: Sisko's actions were not motivated a vicious "Need to win at all costs" instinct or extreme ideological certainty, like the neoconservatives in the US. They were the actions of a man who cared deeply for those who served under him and ordinary soldiers with families, as well as a hard-won realism about what Dominion victory would cost, in blood and treasure. Hardly the characteristics of a man lacking decency.

"That's why you came to me, isn't it Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing. Well, it worked. And you'll get what you wanted: a war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal... and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."

I think that, as DS9 frequently showed, Garak, while he may have incisive commentary as to humanoid nature, also almost always saw things in the most cynical and darkest of manners, motivated in part by his own history, personal regrets and unresolved conflicts. His words reveal an element of the entirety of Sisko in ITPM - they are not the entirety of the story. In short, Garak is a commenter on the story. He's not the all-knowing narrator.

"So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it... Computer, erase that entire personal log."

Another thing I find suspicious is that he deleted the only evidence there really is in regards to his actions. If he were honest and had integrity, he would have let it be known what he did and take whatever punishment there may have been.

Good drama, that shows a good man coming to rationalize his less than noble actions, and trying to convince himself. Notice how he has to convince that "I CAN live with it". Notice that he's quite uncomfortable in his seat. And notice that the series only validates Sisko's awareness of the greater stakes, by showing the Dominion as increasingly cold and murderous.

Still, some father/son conflict would have been more realistic.

First off, I think Jake was smart enough not to push the old man too much. If nothing else, Kira, Jadzia or O'Brien (or even Odo) would've probably set him straight real quick. The thought of any of those three disciplining me would have gotten my attention REAL quick.

More to the point, though, one only has to look at episodes like Emissary and Through The Looking Glass o understand why the two doted on each other so much. Besides, Jake gave Sisko plenty of pause/stress with some of actions during the first six years of the series.

And speaking of Emissary:I think itsmore correct to say that Sisko was embittered, not bitter in general. There is a difference.
 
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