In all fairness, has there ever been an alien race in Trek that we've actually truly felt sorry for?
Yeah, I agree that it wasn't because the writers were worried people who only watched Voyager wouldn't understand about the Cardassians. I mean the whole premise of the show rests upon the Maquis' conflict with Starfleet which is in direct relation to the Cardassians and the Federation's history with them. Anyway, Crell Moset was used in 'Nothing Human' and I doubt the viewers had a hard time understanding that episode. I think it was just because they didn't want to overkill the franchise with a race that is generally associated with DS9. Or y'know the thought never even occured to TPTB, which is a hundred times more likely. Their thought process was probably:
I dunno... I could be wrong.
Well, I have to admit I didn't feel sorry for the Hirogen one little bit. So if that was the point the writers were trying to make in this episode then they completely failed. And, you're right, it does make the use of the Nazis in this particular situation rather silly if a parallel was supposed to be drawn between the two.
The Killing Game
- Thread starter Danny99
- Start date
This episode is one of the reasons why I loved the Hirogen so much. Play the game!! lol
Seriously guys, do you think the only people watching Voyager are die hard Trek fans?
Yeah, I agree that it wasn't because the writers were worried people who only watched Voyager wouldn't understand about the Cardassians. I mean the whole premise of the show rests upon the Maquis' conflict with Starfleet which is in direct relation to the Cardassians and the Federation's history with them. Anyway, Crell Moset was used in 'Nothing Human' and I doubt the viewers had a hard time understanding that episode. I think it was just because they didn't want to overkill the franchise with a race that is generally associated with DS9. Or y'know the thought never even occured to TPTB, which is a hundred times more likely. Their thought process was probably:
I dunno... I could be wrong.
It also couldn't happen due to budget.
It's easier to go into wardrobe and reuse Nazi uniforms than to put every non-Voyager cast member in alien make up. Just imagine the cost of a 5mins scene on DS9's promenade w/ just the make up of the non-speaking characters, not to mention the lighting bill. Voyager had nothing close to that budget, if they did we would have seen more Species 8472 and less Borg.
Last edited:
"Are" now or "Were" during first run?
Neither.
I'm talking about the largely casual viewing audience that may have caught 18 eps. a season, enjoys Trek but dosen't watch every show on any steady basis. They have no idea or care about Janeway's conflict w/ Cardassians or anything about the Maquis beyond "Caretaker's opening. That viewer would understand the use of the Nazi' more than Cardassians, I would think.
There were also major cities in thru US and abroad that didn't show DS9. If they showed Voyager, that audience only has a limited understanding of Cardassians. The ep. will Crell Mosett is identifible due to the topic of medical gains gotten through in-humain means. The only time they address him being an "evil" Cardassian is through B'elanna bigotry but being a Cadrie or Nazi isn't the subject, it was his vile acts as a doctor which was the focus.
We're discussing using the Cardassians. What's so budget unfriendly about utilizing the costumes of one of the major recurring races of the sister series? Then there'd be the uniforms of the time period, and then set-wise, they'd really be able to escape using the prexisting sets, like the cave system and the jungle world set-ups. Really, I'd think it'd be cheaper to do that than to build WWII-era France.
And I might be looking at this from the perspective of a die-hard Trek fan, but I'm also looking at the story - 'The Killing Game' has no personal significance to any of the characters. However, the Cardassian border conflicts was something Janeway had personally been involved in, having her relive this period of time would expand upon her past, show an event that helped to shape her into the person she's become.
To answer the first question which I covered in addressing cost of laytex make up not to mention the staff it would take to apply to all the extras. Everything costs money. THe sets were already redressed "Fair Haven" and "Sandrien's"
Deadlock
Twisted
Future's End
Think Tank
Memorial
Displaced
Worse Case Scenario
Are just a few of the eps. that have no personal significance to any of the characters, what make "the Killing Game" special?
Maybe, just maybe the writers didn't feel a 3 min. story told in "Prey" could be stretched into a two-hour episode.
I think your idea is a great concept, however I'm pretty sure B&B knew they couldn't cover it's cost. It's why we only got super special EFX scene during sweeps and season finales. "YOH" & "Dark Frontier" are both sweeps week eps.
Tourists and fence sitters?
Way I see it, every new race has an imaginary backstory we don't hear much about which is just as complex as any old race with a back story we don't hear about much during the new instalment of their latest adventure.
Consider all the guff that was laid upon us about the Cardassians in their first outting? However there are approximately 3 times as many authentic replicas of nazi uniforms running about between the studios in california than there are visiting Australians on holiday, which is still an unreasonably large number.
Way I see it, every new race has an imaginary backstory we don't hear much about which is just as complex as any old race with a back story we don't hear about much during the new instalment of their latest adventure.
Consider all the guff that was laid upon us about the Cardassians in their first outting? However there are approximately 3 times as many authentic replicas of nazi uniforms running about between the studios in california than there are visiting Australians on holiday, which is still an unreasonably large number.
Last edited:
They can't afford to make up Cardassians, but they can the Klingon warriors that storm the city?
Seriously, the Cardassians could even be a mostly-unseen opponent if budgetary restrictions are involved. And honestly, I'd always been under the impression that DS9 and Voyager had similar budgets.The reason I'm looking for personal signifigance is that this is a two-parter/two-hour special. If you're stretching the story out that much, it SHOULD have some kind of resonance for the characters - Dark Frontier is a big Seven story, including an exploration of her past, Flesh and Blood gives the Doctor a new perspective for holographic rights (though I still disagree with the stance Voyager took on the sentience of holograms). Okay, so Year of Hell has no significance due to the built-in reset button, but there was a clear focus for the story - showing Janeway's determination to get her crew home turning into obsession, even to the point of putting her and the crew at risk. It's about the only character trait of Janeway's that managed to be consistant.
If you're going to take a story and stretch it into two hours, I expect there to be some larger purpose for the story, not just a way to kill two hours instead of one.
I would say so; the Bajorans certainly are one example; if you're talking about enemy races then there are moments I have even felt bad for those Magnificent Bastards the Cardassians.
I don't think one would have to be an obsessed fan to be interested in a bit of character backstory. And I would imagine that even the most casual Trek viewer knows the Cardassians exist. Even if they weren't aware of them then how would viewing the episode be any different from watching an episode that introduces another alien-of-the-week that nobody knew about before?
The person obviously cares enough to be watching the show in the first place, why would information about the captain's past be uninteresting to them? What about that episode of TNG where Picard goes back to France to visit his brother? 'Family' or something? Are you saying that the casual viewers of the show had no interest in that story being told?
It's true that the focus of the episode was about questionable medical practice but the fact that Moset was Cardassian was also a big part of it. It wasn't just B'Elanna who kicked up a fuss about it either, Tabor; a Bajoran, was angry about the use of the Moset hologram and the Cardassian's occupation of Bajor was mentioned in dialogue.
Well, the writers may have thought that but that doesn't necessarily mean they were correct. Any half-decent screenwriter could probably have made that anecdote into a worthy episode. Hell, most Trek episodes can be summarised in a shorter time than it took Janeway to tell that story anyway!
They can't afford to make up Cardassians, but they can the Klingon warriors that storm the city?
It would be a strange state of affairs if DS9's budget was a great deal more than Voyager's. Also if they were struggling for money then they would have done a bottle episode or something without the need for alien make-up or costumes. I mean if they were going to go to the trouble of making up the Hirogens then why not do Cardassians too. They even made Janeway up into a Klingon for a short time, when there was no real need for it.
^^If the producers of Voyager had the money to do all that you assume, they wouldn't have had to let Jen Lien go to make room for Jeri Ryan. They would of had the budget to pay both actresses. It's also why they couldn't have a continuous secondary cast. All of these are hints toward the limits of Voyagers budget.
No offence but It just sounds like: "Because I care allot about the show, everyone that watches must have a vested interest like I do." Not true, the causal viewer watches the show, enjoys it but doesn't pay attention to every detail being told to them. So no, they wouldn't care or remember a 3 mins speech by Janeway from "Prey" about Caradassians and would dismiss an ep. like TNG "Family". The casual viewer doesn't care about Trek history or every detail of the characters, they just watch because it's fun. Prime example is, the casual viewer didn't even remember that Robert Duncan McNeil also played Nick Lacarno. Die hard Treks fans did but the casual audience never associated the two. Why, because they don't pay attention long enough to remember or care.
No offence but It just sounds like: "Because I care allot about the show, everyone that watches must have a vested interest like I do." Not true, the causal viewer watches the show, enjoys it but doesn't pay attention to every detail being told to them. So no, they wouldn't care or remember a 3 mins speech by Janeway from "Prey" about Caradassians and would dismiss an ep. like TNG "Family". The casual viewer doesn't care about Trek history or every detail of the characters, they just watch because it's fun. Prime example is, the casual viewer didn't even remember that Robert Duncan McNeil also played Nick Lacarno. Die hard Treks fans did but the casual audience never associated the two. Why, because they don't pay attention long enough to remember or care.
Last edited:
The money needed to pay the wages of both Jennifer and Jeri for a season's worth of episodes let alone four season's worth would be far higher than the amount spent on one two-part episode. And I maintain that the money needed for a Cardassian border skirmish themed 'Killing Game' would not be much more than needed for the WWII version we got. In fact given the possible savings on the set design mentioned by DGCatAniSiri I'm not even convinced it would cost more.
Well I'm sure the two-part episode could be written in such a way so as to not alienate casual viewers. The link with Janeway's 'Prey' anecdote would just be a nice reference for fans who follow the show week by week. Also, I'm not convinced even casual viewers have such a level of disregard for the programmes they watch that they wouldn't remember anything they saw or care at all about the characters.
There's a great deal of difference between remembering the same actor guest starred on a related but different television series several years before and being aware (in some manner) of wider events in the Trek universe. Especially something like the Cardassians who have appeared in all three series in one way or another and are directly related to the Maquis an organisation in which half the main characters on Voyager were involved.
Well, I guess I can only speak from personal experance knowing & talking to many casual viewers of Trek. They don't know nor care about much of this. I'm sure you can even do a survey yourself of the casual non-fan viewer and get similar results.
However I personally find the sloppy writing excuse a lame one, especially when people refuse to actually learn about production value. Which 9 times out of 10 is the real reason why things don't turn out how the fans wish. I guess it's easier to believe these men who worked hard to earn their degrees are simply lazy & stupid.
Last edited:
Say what you will about the Nazis, but they had great uniforms. Not just the dog soldiers but all the attire of the officers, it was like fashion week every day while they were trying to take over the world.
What most of the US Military wears today is down right dire.
Though, don't you just love the Marine Dress Uniform. It comes with a freaking sword!
I talk about sodomy and choices a lot, but this might be my gayest post ever.
What most of the US Military wears today is down right dire.
Though, don't you just love the Marine Dress Uniform. It comes with a freaking sword!
I talk about sodomy and choices a lot, but this might be my gayest post ever.
You are perfectly entitled to believe that 'the sloppy writing excuse' is 'lame', however, claiming that the people in this thread who disagree with you either know nothing about producton value or 'refuse to learn' about it is presumptuous. I don't deny that in many cases things that the fans want to see happen, don't happen, because of economic reasons, but I don't believe that is the case in this instance and nothing I have read so far has convinced me otherwise.
I take it by 'these men' you mean the writers (correct me if I'm wrong)? Well, having a degree doesn't make a person a good writer. Also, I've met a number of people who have degrees who could be classed as 'lazy' and in some cases 'stupid' as well, depending on what one's interpretation of stupid is. And who knows if they worked hard to earn their degrees? (If, indeed, they have them?) Lots of people just coast through university.
Finally, I can only speak for myself but it's not 'easier' for me to believe that the Voyager writers were stupid/lazy. I'd much prefer not to think that it would be possible for a primetime television show with the reputation/longevity of Star Trek to fall foul to the many continuity errors and bad story/character decisions seen in Voyager, only made possible by a sub-standard writing staff. But the evidence is before my own eyes and so I have to believe it. There is a lot to love about Voyager, and believe me I do, it doesn't mean that I don't see problems within the series though and I personally lay the majority of that blame at the writer's feet.
You're not alone in this opinion, however, poor old Bryan Ferry had to apologise for his comment.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/apr/16/news.bryanferry
It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me. In the grand scheme of things, personal opinions about Trek don't mean a hill of beans.
It does have to do with believing things of what you've read and where you read it from. I question it because so far I don't see evidence of knowledge of production beyond message board hear say. The only arguement I'm reading is: "The Killing Game wasn't good for me because writers didn't go with my idea of what it should have been about." Sorry dude, but I'm not seeing a reason to be disappointed if you don't believe Cardassians should be used instead of Nazi'. Even that is a minor issue.
Being Star Trek doesn't put the show above things many other shows on TV suffer from as well. Plently of shows old and new have continutity errors & bad characters. Trek since TOS has never been flawless.
Last edited:
Well I won't argue with that.
I agree with this for the most part. I don't expect Trek to be flawless and I think these forums would be much more boring if it wasn't for the errors/controversies.
On this I completely agree.
Well I won't argue with that.
I agree with this for the most part. I don't expect Trek to be flawless and I think these forums would be much more boring if it wasn't for the errors/controversies.
However, I see don't see using Nazi' instead of Cardies an error. I see it as a choice that had to be made for setting and format, and Nazi' were more acccessable than Cardies.
I also think due to Garak, Damar & Ziyal, some now are sympathic toward Cardies. Nobody is ever sympathic toward Nazi', so they still stand out as the ulitmate villains to use in story telling.
Thanks for the awesome debate.
Similar threads
