The Killing Game

[Misco]

I wish they'd done something other than Nazis and WWII. I just... When I watch the episode, I think 'what's the point?'

I think they decided on the World War II scenario because visually it's easy to do; hang up a couple of big drapes with a swastika on, add some Nazi uniforms wandering around and design wise you're pretty much done. Also the story allowed for the nice role reversal of Janeway as the leader of a Maquis resistance cell and Chakotay as the head of the military regiment.

I wish that instead of the WWII scenario, they'd done a scenario of WWIII, perhaps. Or maybe, for personal resonance, the Cardassian border dispute that Janeway herself saw action in. Something that gave us a better picture of the Star Trek canvas as a whole, some piece of their history that's still 'the future' for us, the audience.

I don't deny that this would have been infinitely more informative and I would have been very interested in seeing Janeway's perspective on the Cardassian border disputes put on film, however, at the time the Cardassian's were a major part of DS9 and I can't imagine TPTB really wanting to use them in Voyager in such a way.

I love everything about this episode except the ending. Big holodeck fire fight, and then the holodeck gets turned off. Chakotay: "That's it. It's over." And they walk away. REALLY LAME.

I would have to agree with this. 'The Killing Game' is my favourite Voyager two-parter and I love almost all of it. The way the crew's characters in the holodeck mirrored their real life counterpart's relationships; Tuvok as Janeway's 'second-in-command' in lieu of Chakotay, the antagonistic and suspicious relationship between Seven and both Janeway and Tuvok, Neelix as the delivery guy who nevertheless plays an integral part in the resistance movement and Tom and B'Elanna as star-crossed lovers. I also thought it was great how desperate and demoralised the crew left aware of the situation were; with the Doctor stuck in a position where he was unable to do anything to help the crew other than patch them up and Harry forced to actually assist the Hirogen in their protracted 'hunt'. Seven's singing was really just the cherry on the top of an already magnificent cake. (I still can't listen to 'That Old Black Magic' without thinking of this episode with a grin.)

Often in two parters I tend to think that the story can run out of steam in the second part but I thought Janeway's 'awakening' and her subsequent pact/face off with the Alpha/Beta was a lot of fun to watch. In fact in many ways I thought the episode was quite beautifully written; if only it weren't for the horrible, horrible ending. In fact the only thing good I have to say about the resolution of 'The Killing Game' is that it didn't have the ending from 'Year of Hell' which is a thousand times more unsatisfying, unworthy and insulting.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But imagine if Year of Hell ended, with Annorax feeling that Janeway was only scared of his temporal technology because she didn't understand it coupled with a lopsided power relationship between the two of them, so he gave her all the secrets to all his devices and then took flight for parts unknown as the Voyager crew like thrashing monkeys tried to fashion the Krenim tech into new forms of propulsion, shields and weaponry, to god knows what unforseen disasterous personal, sociological and ecological and just plain explosive effects?

 

[exodus]

Most likely because Trek is shown internationally and WWII is the one war that can be related to on that global scale.

Uh... maybe I'm just not understanding, but why would there necessarily need to be a 'global relation' factor to the story they're telling? I mean... what specifically was the message that comes across through choosing WWII? I mean, from the viewpoint of a writer, I'd want something that would relate specifically to the characters - it's why I suggested the Cardassian border wars, which Janeway was personally involved in. For her character, she'd be made to relive a traumatic time of her life - there's personal significance in that story, as opposed to going to WWII for the sake of being in WWII and having Seven as a singer in a nightclub.

Because you can't assume your audience has watched every incarnation of Trek to know the history of the Cardassians. Many viewers thet watched Voy., haven't watched DS9 or TNG and Voyager is their first exposure to Trek. There is a better chance that nationally & internationally the viewer will know the history of WWII from simply paying attention in school.

The point that comes across more clearly than using Cardassians is there is no denying that Nazi' were uber-racists, far more than they ever showed the Cardassians being. The Nazi' caused such a panic globally, they even caused American citizens to turn on the own kind due to suspicion of collaboration.

 

[JB2005]

But imagine if Year of Hell ended, with Annorax feeling that Janeway was only scared of his temporal technology because she didn't understand it coupled with a lopsided power relationship between the two of them, so he gave her all the secrets to all his devices and then took flight for parts unknown as the Voyager crew like thrashing monkeys tried to fashion the Krenim tech into new forms of propulsion, shields and weaponry, to god knows what unforseen disasterous personal, sociological and ecological and just plain explosive effects?

Hmm...that might have worked better than the big reset button...plus there would have been continuity between the episodes

 

[Guy Gardener]

Good vs. Evil. No grey.

Although, if I have had some say in the matter, I would have hired half the cast of 'Allo 'Allo to grey the hell out of the matter...

"Edith we can't possibly lose the war... We're on everyone's side."

Though, you really want to see grey.

They should have set the story on the turning point in '43 when the Italians switched sides.

"Hey buddy, didn't you try to kill me yesterday?"

"Oh, what a mistak'a to mak'a."

 

[JB2005]

^ Indeed, They'd already offended the native americans, why not the Italians!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why not think of it as an opportunity to lead from example?

How is dumping Mussolini(Wasn't he just dragged out into the streets and hung from a lamppost?) in favour of a less naughty way of life, any different from say marooning Janeway on a planetoid and scarpering off for home if they couldn't find a lamppost, to lead a less naughty life?

I mean because the common argument of late has been 'decent people mislead or cowered by inasane despots into breaking bad also" right? Which covers most of the wars in the last century.

O.

I never thought of that? Was Resolutions "done" to kathy and Chuckles intentionally? I mean engineering a bug to bite them might be difficult, but programming the Doctor to think/know that a cure is beyond him and he might as give up wouldn't be at all difficult.

 

[Captan_Picard]

Give me a story with some meat, not just standard ration bars - I want to be full and satisfied, not just full. The Killing Game is packaged in shiny material, but doesn't leave me satisfied.

That is the problem shared with half the episodes of Voyager, I'm afraid.

Meat is science to me...hmmm....maybe you would like the Cloud from Season 1 or the Macrovirus ep.

or tuvix ep. it has the shiny wrapping. but it has the science of how tuvix came to be. We insert Kneelix and Tuvok along with some plant basin and guess who we get! Tuvix! lol.

 

[Captan_Picard]

Well, it is Harry. Odds are he'd have died in the explosion, and the kid had already died at least twice by then.

Uh no? You lissen 2 him and from the BEGINNING he was left to repair the systems. Do you think the Hirogen new how to fix Voyager?

Please, there vessels are 24the century tin box go carts!

They don't know what a holodeck is...

 

[Captan_Picard]

Don't you like how they set up the Hirogen as this vicious enemies, and an ongoing antagonist, yet they make peace in this episode... Almost immediately, and they only factor into like one more?

And didn't they do the same thing with species 8472?

Neither of them was easy.

Species 8472 I admit was holding the stick, but they were only concerned about the threatening tech Voyager had produced. They rather go home. Janeway provided Assulge to there issues.

As for the Hirogen. They left Voyager because the way things were going, the safetys off and we got Holograms running up and down corridors dissmantling it cuz they think they stumbled on a secret underground bunker.

Face it, Sick bay needed to be repaired from the 40 pounds of dynomite under the deck. the power grid was shambles. The Hirogen had no profit. The fight went very badly.

To me the the Klingon Federation Alliance was too easy. Too me it don't seem very Klingon to just give up when half there homeworld explodes. Sorry if you don't agree. Although Im glad the alliance came to be.

 

[Captan_Picard]

I wish they'd done something other than Nazis and WWII. I just... When I watch the episode, I think 'what's the point?' What did we learn about the characters that was new? What's the personal effect of this story that makes it deserve the two hours? And I can't find an answer.

I wish that instead of the WWII scenario, they'd done a scenario of WWIII, perhaps. Or maybe, for personal resonance, the Cardassian border dispute that Janeway herself saw action in. Something that gave us a better picture of the Star Trek canvas as a whole, some piece of their history that's still 'the future' for us, the audience.

That said, though it's completely gratuitious, I did enjoy Seven's singing.

Most likely because Trek is shown internationally and WWII is the one war that can be related to on that global scale.

Gene would have been prowd of the ep I think. It enlightens the pallete. Its about the general product effects of war and why we should not do it. It explains that Earths possible future could have been like the Hirogen. While the effects of WWII had been stopped. We are closer to another anticast type ready for world domination. We have a lot we can learn from the ep.

The point is not to just learn about the crew and be entertained by the species. Its self discovery. What do you think we should become? Each species that have been aired and different situations explore certain situations you, your kids or earth could find itself in.

Equinox deals with the Bone Island. The juste is eat the Bore, but don't kill the man and eat him. Do NOT kill something sentient to feed yourself. Jeffery Dommers who did this without visiting bone island could have learned a lot prior to his activities.

Right now we are destined to turn out like the Romulan's I think.

 

[Captan_Picard]

So...the Hirogen are DEAF or something?? Like the Doc just talks to seven when a hirogen is in te biolab..like they are deaf? And what is the chances that Janeway turns back to Janeway at the moment when she is going to pull the trigger?

The Hirogen like other species don't respect and pretend to ignore holograms. So naturly the Doctor will treat him as he is acting.

The Doctor does it a lot of people. Even the Voyager crew when first activated. He just wants respect. Acting as if your a mere table is NOT respect.

Perhaps if your my doctor and are about to treat me, I turn and speak to someone near you and say "Does this guy really work?" while I sit up and you have just told me to lay down so you may treat my broken arm. I am no respecting you on many levels.

1) I am impuning your inteligence.
2) I am ignoring you and addressing someone near by when I should ask you if you can do your job instead of a random person near by.
3) I am not fallowing instructions.

The doc did compromise.

I wont slam your ass on the bed as if you are rag doll if you respect me.

He only did this when they did not.

Notice how right off he treated people with respect when he started receaving some.

I would slam your ass on the bed 2 because I'm trying to do my job.

Generally its well said. So think about it the next time you get angry at the doc. watch season 1. pay attention how he kinda stops being as angry as much torward the end of the season.

Some of his anger is he didn't want to do it. Who could blame him? I wouldn't want to be a doctor to a bunch of (Edit: But wipes).

 

[Captan_Picard]

I wish they'd done something other than Nazis and WWII. I just... When I watch the episode, I think 'what's the point?'

I think they decided on the World War II scenario because visually it's easy to do; hang up a couple of big drapes with a swastika on, add some Nazi uniforms wandering around and design wise you're pretty much done. Also the story allowed for the nice role reversal of Janeway as the leader of a Maquis resistance cell and Chakotay as the head of the military regiment.

I wish that instead of the WWII scenario, they'd done a scenario of WWIII, perhaps. Or maybe, for personal resonance, the Cardassian border dispute that Janeway herself saw action in. Something that gave us a better picture of the Star Trek canvas as a whole, some piece of their history that's still 'the future' for us, the audience.

I don't deny that this would have been infinitely more informative and I would have been very interested in seeing Janeway's perspective on the Cardassian border disputes put on film, however, at the time the Cardassian's were a major part of DS9 and I can't imagine TPTB really wanting to use them in Voyager in such a way.

I love everything about this episode except the ending. Big holodeck fire fight, and then the holodeck gets turned off. Chakotay: "That's it. It's over." And they walk away. REALLY LAME.

I would have to agree with this. 'The Killing Game' is my favourite Voyager two-parter and I love almost all of it. The way the crew's characters in the holodeck mirrored their real life counterpart's relationships; Tuvok as Janeway's 'second-in-command' in lieu of Chakotay, the antagonistic and suspicious relationship between Seven and both Janeway and Tuvok, Neelix as the delivery guy who nevertheless plays an integral part in the resistance movement and Tom and B'Elanna as star-crossed lovers. I also thought it was great how desperate and demoralised the crew left aware of the situation were; with the Doctor stuck in a position where he was unable to do anything to help the crew other than patch them up and Harry forced to actually assist the Hirogen in their protracted 'hunt'. Seven's singing was really just the cherry on the top of an already magnificent cake. (I still can't listen to 'That Old Black Magic' without thinking of this episode with a grin.)

Often in two parters I tend to think that the story can run out of steam in the second part but I thought Janeway's 'awakening' and her subsequent pact/face off with the Alpha/Beta was a lot of fun to watch. In fact in many ways I thought the episode was quite beautifully written; if only it weren't for the horrible, horrible ending. In fact the only thing good I have to say about the resolution of 'The Killing Game' is that it didn't have the ending from 'Year of Hell' which is a thousand times more unsatisfying, unworthy and insulting.

um nothing was easy. The sets had to be desighned. and they needed extra's who could play decent reanactments of World War II.

There was nothing simple.

It cost them a decent amount of money.

 

[Captan_Picard]

But imagine if Year of Hell ended, with Annorax feeling that Janeway was only scared of his temporal technology because she didn't understand it coupled with a lopsided power relationship between the two of them, so he gave her all the secrets to all his devices and then took flight for parts unknown as the Voyager crew like thrashing monkeys tried to fashion the Krenim tech into new forms of propulsion, shields and weaponry, to god knows what unforseen disasterous personal, sociological and ecological and just plain explosive effects?

Hmm...that might have worked better than the big reset button...plus there would have been continuity between the episodes

Wouldn't happen, Star Fleet has regulations that ban that technogy prior to the ep. You DON'T alter the past. He was flying around in his creepy craft erasin crap from history.

Thats not good. had he not been stopped his alterations might have branched out like a domino effect streight to the Alpha quadrent given time.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But imagine if Year of Hell ended, with Annorax feeling that Janeway was only scared of his temporal technology because she didn't understand it coupled with a lopsided power relationship between the two of them, so he gave her all the secrets to all his devices and then took flight for parts unknown as the Voyager crew like thrashing monkeys tried to fashion the Krenim tech into new forms of propulsion, shields and weaponry, to god knows what unforeseen disasterous personal, sociological and ecological and just plain explosive effects?

Hmm...that might have worked better than the big reset button...plus there would have been continuity between the episodes

Wouldn't happen, Star Fleet has regulations that ban that technology prior to the ep. You DON'T alter the past. He was flying around in his creepy craft erasin crap from history.

Thats not good. had he not been stopped his alterations might have branched out like a domino effect straight to the Alpha quadrant given time.

Sweet zombie Jesus!

A complete supersarcastic role reversal allegory Picard!

I placed Annorax in Janeways position from the end of the Killing game(name of the thread. I assumed I was being transparent.), and Janeway in the Krenim's, to suggest that as another Picard put it that instantly changing a society with technology is dangerous, to illustrate how insane it was to give the Hirgoen technology that they didn't have the gumption to build or the ethics to use... To illuminate how the final play in the the Killing Game was as infinitely cockeyed if shoes were placed on alternative feet that Janeway should neither give away or receive technology or maybe truman should have given Stalin the bomb in 1946?

However, still these law abiding creatures of good conscience used the Doctors holo emitter daily without a second thought to unforeseen consequences like 29th century Drones, other killer AI (foreign and domestic), pirate HMO's or groupie music festivals who all might wind up appropriating the technology without Voyagers say so or permission.

Did I really have to say "Prime Directive" anywhere in the first principle?

 

[Misco]

I think they decided on the World War II scenario because visually it's easy to do; hang up a couple of big drapes with a swastika on, add some Nazi uniforms wandering around and design wise you're pretty much done.

um nothing was easy. The sets had to be desighned. and they needed extra's who could play decent reanactments of World War II.

There was nothing simple.

It cost them a decent amount of money.

I never suggested that it was cheap to do, merely that it didn't require any creative thinking on the design team's part. Nazi Germany/Occupied France has been done to death in film/television productions and I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of the stuff they used on the set were just poached from other productions.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Most likely because Trek is shown internationally and WWII is the one war that can be related to on that global scale.

Uh... maybe I'm just not understanding, but why would there necessarily need to be a 'global relation' factor to the story they're telling? I mean... what specifically was the message that comes across through choosing WWII? I mean, from the viewpoint of a writer, I'd want something that would relate specifically to the characters - it's why I suggested the Cardassian border wars, which Janeway was personally involved in. For her character, she'd be made to relive a traumatic time of her life - there's personal significance in that story, as opposed to going to WWII for the sake of being in WWII and having Seven as a singer in a nightclub.

Because you can't assume your audience has watched every incarnation of Trek to know the history of the Cardassians. Many viewers thet watched Voy., haven't watched DS9 or TNG and Voyager is their first exposure to Trek. There is a better chance that nationally & internationally the viewer will know the history of WWII from simply paying attention in school.

The point that comes across more clearly than using Cardassians is there is no denying that Nazi' were uber-racists, far more than they ever showed the Cardassians being. The Nazi' caused such a panic globally, they even caused American citizens to turn on the own kind due to suspicion of collaboration.

Just two episodes prior, in Prey, Janeway had made reference to being involved in the conflicts with the Cardassians - they don't have to include all the history of the Cardassians, just mention the year and some basic outlines of the border war and we're good. If they'd then made this two parter a Janeway focus that saw her back in the conflicts, I'd be singing praises of how Voyager was making an attempt at planning out storylines in advance.

And... what exactly was the point of including the Nazis, honestly? I mean, if I squint, I can almost see that they were trying to set up parallels between Nazi thought-processes and the Hirogen's, but at the same time, the episode is asking us to sympathize with them - they're nomads, their culture and way of life is dying. So there's a conflict between the two - no one sympathizes with the Nazis, but the writers want us to feel for the Hirogen. You can't have both.

 

[exodus]

Uh... maybe I'm just not understanding, but why would there necessarily need to be a 'global relation' factor to the story they're telling? I mean... what specifically was the message that comes across through choosing WWII? I mean, from the viewpoint of a writer, I'd want something that would relate specifically to the characters - it's why I suggested the Cardassian border wars, which Janeway was personally involved in. For her character, she'd be made to relive a traumatic time of her life - there's personal significance in that story, as opposed to going to WWII for the sake of being in WWII and having Seven as a singer in a nightclub.

Because you can't assume your audience has watched every incarnation of Trek to know the history of the Cardassians. Many viewers thet watched Voy., haven't watched DS9 or TNG and Voyager is their first exposure to Trek. There is a better chance that nationally & internationally the viewer will know the history of WWII from simply paying attention in school.

The point that comes across more clearly than using Cardassians is there is no denying that Nazi' were uber-racists, far more than they ever showed the Cardassians being. The Nazi' caused such a panic globally, they even caused American citizens to turn on the own kind due to suspicion of collaboration.

Just two episodes prior, in Prey, Janeway had made reference to being involved in the conflicts with the Cardassians - they don't have to include all the history of the Cardassians, just mention the year and some basic outlines of the border war and we're good. If they'd then made this two parter a Janeway focus that saw her back in the conflicts, I'd be singing praises of how Voyager was making an attempt at planning out storylines in advance.

And... what exactly was the point of including the Nazis, honestly? I mean, if I squint, I can almost see that they were trying to set up parallels between Nazi thought-processes and the Hirogen's, but at the same time, the episode is asking us to sympathize with them - they're nomads, their culture and way of life is dying. So there's a conflict between the two - no one sympathizes with the Nazis, but the writers want us to feel for the Hirogen. You can't have both.

Voyager is not an arc based show, when it shown in repeats it's often shown out of order. So it doesn't matter what was said two eps. before. Besides, what do the Hirogen know of Janeway & her Cardassian boarder war? Why should they care? They were looking for time within human history when we on the verge of being conquered, that's why their next choice was WOLF 359. The Cardassians were never a threat to the Federation in that aspect.

The Cardassians were done to death on DS9, there was no reason to keep bringing them up on a ship lost thousands of light years away. That's redundant.

 

[Misco]

Just two episodes prior, in Prey, Janeway had made reference to being involved in the conflicts with the Cardassians - they don't have to include all the history of the Cardassians, just mention the year and some basic outlines of the border war and we're good.

Yeah, I agree that it wasn't because the writers were worried people who only watched Voyager wouldn't understand about the Cardassians. I mean the whole premise of the show rests upon the Maquis' conflict with Starfleet which is in direct relation to the Cardassians and the Federation's history with them. Anyway, Crell Moset was used in 'Nothing Human' and I doubt the viewers had a hard time understanding that episode. I think it was just because they didn't want to overkill the franchise with a race that is generally associated with DS9. Or y'know the thought never even occured to TPTB, which is a hundred times more likely. Their thought process was probably:

Menosky: I was thinking maybe we should do a holodeck episode, I feel it's an under-used concept with a lot of great possibilities to be explored.
Braga: What a great idea! Here, *proffers upside down hat* pick the alien race out who the intrepid Voyager crew will be fighting against this week.
Menosky: *rummages in hat and pulls out several slips of paper* Hey, these all have 'The Borg' written on them!
Braga: Huh, wonder how that happened... well I already have a couple [read: thousands] of Borg scripts in the works so...
Menosky: Maybe we should use the Hirogen instead?
Braga: Yeah, they would fit well with the Nazi theme too.
Menosky: Nazi theme?
Braga: Well, we already used the American Civil War. The only other war I can think of is the World War.
Menosky: I think you mean World War II that was the one with Nazis.
Braga: There were two of them?
Menosky: Erm... well... Brannon... erm... obviously history's not your strong suit. Perhaps we should use a conflict from Star Trek's established history? I hear tell the fans like continuity...
Braga: What is this 'con-tin-u-ity' that you speak of?

I dunno... I could be wrong.

So there's a conflict between the two - no one sympathizes with the Nazis, but the writers want us to feel for the Hirogen. You can't have both.

Well, I have to admit I didn't feel sorry for the Hirogen one little bit. So if that was the point the writers were trying to make in this episode then they completely failed. And, you're right, it does make the use of the Nazis in this particular situation rather silly if a parallel was supposed to be drawn between the two.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think they decided on the World War II scenario because visually it's easy to do; hang up a couple of big drapes with a swastika on, add some Nazi uniforms wandering around and design wise you're pretty much done.

um nothing was easy. The sets had to be desighned. and they needed extra's who could play decent reanactments of World War II.

There was nothing simple.

It cost them a decent amount of money.

I never suggested that it was cheap to do, merely that it didn't require any creative thinking on the design team's part. Nazi Germany/Occupied France has been done to death in film/television productions and I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of the stuff they used on the set were just poached from other productions.

I wonder if their budget would have changed if the costs for that explosion at the end could have been shifted on to Enterprise Stormfront where they "borrowed" Voyagers sfx boob boom to do wwii on the cheap themselves?

You know, if Voyagers accountants drove deLorians.