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The Inhumans Marvel/IMAX

What, you've never heard about how the X-Fans can't see how the X-Men can exist in a world where other superheroes aren't hated the way Mutants are?

Not in the melodramatic warring-camps sense you're alleging. Fandom isn't gang warfare. People can have different opinions or points of view without being enemies.

There's certainly logic to the argument that having the cinematic X-Men exist independently of the MCU avoids the prickly questions their coexistence would raise. But I don't see what it could possibly have to do with this supposed X-Men vs. Inhumans fan feud you're positing. If anything, the same question could be raised about the Inhumans and the way they're treated. Indeed, in the current MCU, with the Sokovia Accords in effect, there's a lot of mistrust toward all superpowered beings.
 
I haven't frequented the CBR boards for years, but I remember some of the Avengers/X-Men arguments getting extremely silly.
 
What? No, this is so much simpler than what I was proposing before. What I'm suggesting is no more complicated than the way a cheesy Halloween spider costume or B-movie monster costume can fake extra limbs. I'm talking about simple, stiff wires that are flexible enough to shake when the wearer moves. Hell, you can come close to the effect I'm talking about just with a lot of hairspray -- go watch anything Farrah Fawcett-Majors was in back in the '70s. It's not that hard to to make hair bouncy and springy. I'm just talking about adding some additional springiness with a very, very cheap, simple costuming trick. I'm astonished that you'd think this is complicated.
Oh, I thought you were talking about some big crazy CGI effect with her hair constantly moving and flowing, down to the individual hair.
Wow, in addition to the other issues the casting doesn't look great. Especially so for Medusa.

This looks pretty poor all round. Marvel keep plugging away with Inhumans in the comics to little effect - they're just not very popular, never really were. It looks like they've managed to transfer their unlikeability to the screen intact.
I don't think the casting is the problem there. Serinda Swan was terrific as Zatanna on Smallville. I think she's just poorly served by her costuming and hairstyling and perhaps by the writing and directing.
Forget Smallville, she was awesome on Graceland in an arc focused on her character going undercover as a sex trafficking victim. I doubt anything she did on Smallville went quite to that level.
 
What, you've never heard about how the X-Fans can't see how the X-Men can exist in a world where other superheroes aren't hated the way Mutants are?

I love the Marvel universe and I agree the mutant problem works better in its own universe. The two are not mutually exclusive.
 
I love the Marvel universe and I agree the mutant problem works better in its own universe. The two are not mutually exclusive.

It only "works in its own universe" if you ignore how racism works. In the real world, some groups always get hit worse than others, and it only gets crazy if the X-Writers make Mutant Hate out to be psychotically over-the-top instead of more like real racism.

Plus, even writers like Chris Claremont ignored the Mutant Hate thing when it suited him and had the X-Men be treated like normal heroes when he felt like it.

The real problem here is that Marvel never put the X-Writers on a leash over how they did things back in the mid 80s until the mid 2000s and let them write like they were in some separate world. If they'd restrained them this wouldn't have happened.

That, and the Mutant Hate is partially because Xavier is an utter incompetent.
 
Oh, I thought you were talking about some big crazy CGI effect with her hair constantly moving and flowing, down to the individual hair.

No, just a full-bodied wig with some bounce to it, and enough springiness to respond to the actress's motions in a way that inexpensively gave the impression of something mobile and alive. The sort of thing you'd use in shots where her hair wasn't the focus of attention just to create a background impression, which would then be supplemented with CGI in the shots where her hair was supposed to be moving. That's a decades-old FX trick -- only use the effect in a few shots, but do something that creates the impression that it's still going on in other shots, in order to direct the audience's imaginations to fill in the blanks. So if you paid close attention to her hair in the non-focus shots, you could tell it was just a bouncy wig, but normally your attention would be on the dialogue or actions going on elsewhere in the shot, and the occasional CGI shot would've established that her hair does move on its own, so the bouncy/springy quality of the wig going on in the background of your attention would create the subliminal impression that it was still moving on its own, because your brain would be filling in the expectation that the CG shots had created.

We've forgotten in these days when VFX is assumed to be all overt, photorealistic CGI, but for most of the history of visual effects as an art form, it's basically had a lot of techniques in common with stage magic. A lot of it is misdirection, making the audience think they see something they don't actually see. It's still done even today -- using just enough CGI to create an impression, then cutting away to show characters' reactions or the like and letting the audience's minds fill in the rest. A full-bodied, bouncy Medusa wig would help sell that illusion better than the flat, lifeless thing they're using.


It only "works in its own universe" if you ignore how racism works. In the real world, some groups always get hit worse than others, and it only gets crazy if the X-Writers make Mutant Hate out to be psychotically over-the-top instead of more like real racism.

That's true. Bigots would see someone born with superpowers as more intrinsically "not like us" than a baseline human who got powers from an experiment or accident or what-have-you. True, a number of Avengers are aliens, androids, pagan deities, and the like, and one would expect some degree of intolerance toward all of those (I imagine the religious right would have fits over Thor), but the fear of mutants tends to be rooted in the fear that they'll replace us -- that they're a newly evolving competitor species and a harbinger of Homo sapiens sapiens's looming extinction. It's similar to the way real-life white supremacist propaganda is rooted in the fear of "white genocide" and other races outbreeding the white race into extinction. (Which seems rather backwards, to insist on their own superiority yet expect to be defeated in a competition. But that just exposes the lie behind it -- it's not superiority, just insecurity and fear.)


Plus, even writers like Chris Claremont ignored the Mutant Hate thing when it suited him and had the X-Men be treated like normal heroes when he felt like it.

Well, of course, society isn't monolithic. There are groups that accept or welcome diversity and groups that deplore it, and which groups dominate the national conversation changes over time. And the mood can change quickly, often as a result of one group reacting against the ascendance of another group. Nine years ago, we elected our first black president and people were talking about how we'd entered a post-racial era. But instead it provoked a ferocious backlash and revealed that racist ideologies still held far more sway in this country than we'd thought, and now we have actual goddamn Nazi sympathizers in the White House.

So by the same token, it stands to reason that when the X-Men did heroic things earning them positive recognition, it would marginalize the mutant-haters in the national conversation, but they'd still be there in the background, ready to stoke up hate and spread their propaganda as soon as some setback gave them the opportunity, or as soon as they found a way to create an opportunity by making mutants look bad.
 
That's true. Bigots would see someone born with superpowers as more intrinsically "not like us" than a baseline human who got powers from an experiment or accident or what-have-you. True, a number of Avengers are aliens, androids, pagan deities, and the like, and one would expect some degree of intolerance toward all of those (I imagine the religious right would have fits over Thor), but the fear of mutants tends to be rooted in the fear that they'll replace us -- that they're a newly evolving competitor species and a harbinger of Homo sapiens sapiens's looming extinction. It's similar to the way real-life white supremacist propaganda is rooted in the fear of "white genocide" and other races outbreeding the white race into extinction. (Which seems rather backwards, to insist on their own superiority yet expect to be defeated in a competition. But that just exposes the lie behind it -- it's not superiority, just insecurity and fear.)

It's also because of guys like Magneto constantly boasting about mutants wiping out Humanity, and Xavier being a total incompetent who advocates segregation. There have been plenty of What Ifs that show what happens when someone competent at Mutant/Human stuff is in power (Wolverine heading SHIELD, for example) and how quickly things get better. Claremont even acknowledged this in "X-Men: The End" with the epilogue stating the X-Men were really bad at actually settling Mutant Hate.

So by the same token, it stands to reason that when the X-Men did heroic things earning them positive recognition, it would marginalize the mutant-haters in the national conversation, but they'd still be there in the background, ready to stoke up hate and spread their propaganda as soon as some setback gave them the opportunity, or as soon as they found a way to create an opportunity by making mutants look bad.

Yeah, but the X-Men being really bad at sticking up for mutants added to that.
 
It only "works in its own universe" if you ignore how racism works. In the real world, some groups always get hit worse than others, and it only gets crazy if the X-Writers make Mutant Hate out to be psychotically over-the-top instead of more like real racism.

Plus, even writers like Chris Claremont ignored the Mutant Hate thing when it suited him and had the X-Men be treated like normal heroes when he felt like it.

The real problem here is that Marvel never put the X-Writers on a leash over how they did things back in the mid 80s until the mid 2000s and let them write like they were in some separate world. If they'd restrained them this wouldn't have happened.

That, and the Mutant Hate is partially because Xavier is an utter incompetent.

Sure, if you completely rewrite the way the X-Men are usually presented, then it isn't a problem. But I like the way the X-Men deal with the mutant issue, so I like them better separate.

And yes, I completely understand that people may be less disturbed by one group of superpowered people than another - but it IS partly the superpowers that always come up again and again when people rail against mutants, so it IS just a little weird that the Fantastic Four are sitting over here being beloved celebrities.

All of which I have no real problem accepting in the comics. That's just the way things have evolved - and it certainly does have its benefits as well (ie, Wolverine and Cap in WWII, etc). But I do very much appreciate the separation of the franchises in the movies (especially since it frees Marvel up to make movies that wouldn't get made otherwise, like Guardians). I just wish Fox were more consistent in their quality.
 
And yes, I completely understand that people may be less disturbed by one group of superpowered people than another - but it IS partly the superpowers that always come up again and again when people rail against mutants, so it IS just a little weird that the Fantastic Four are sitting over here being beloved celebrities.

The core assumptions underlying bigotry are often weird and illogical. In this case, however, it kinda does make sense. Like I said, the fear of mutants is often cast in terms of the danger of humanity being outcompeted by a new species, like how we supposedly wiped out the Neanderthals (although it's now known that we interbred with them too). People who get superpowers through accident or experiment won't necessarily pass those powers on to their offspring, so they don't pose the same (alleged) existential threat to humanity.

Although if that's the reason for the difference, I suppose the public's attitude should've changed as soon as Reed and Sue's kid turned out to be a mutant, because that proved their powers were hereditary. There's also Peter Parker's daughter in the Spider-Girl alternate universe.


But I do very much appreciate the separation of the franchises in the movies (especially since it frees Marvel up to make movies that wouldn't get made otherwise, like Guardians).

Yeah, it's not an either-or question. The benefit of having different versions of the characters is that you can approach them in different ways -- in the comics they share a universe, in the movies they don't, and each approach has its own advantages.

Besides, it's just a fait accompli. The X-Men film series was already 8 years old when the MCU began, and it was established in a way that wouldn't have allowed it to be retroactively folded into the MCU anyway -- well, not unless the MCU had deliberately been shaped to fit in the pre-existing X-Men universe, which of course it wasn't. The film universes are separate and it's too late to change that now.


I just wish Fox were more consistent in their quality.

They seem to be getting better. I'd say that nearly all the films they've done in the past 7 years have been good to excellent except Apocalypse, and even that one was stronger than Origins: Wolverine. Overall I think they've had more hits than misses, and they've been willing to do some interesting experiments like Deadpool and Logan. (I actually wasn't that crazy about Deadpool, but that's mainly because it's not my style of humor. I respect their willingness to take chances and try something so different.)
 
...The X-Men film series was already 8 years old when the MCU began, and it was established in a way that wouldn't have allowed it to be retroactively folded into the MCU anyway -- well, not unless the MCU had deliberately been shaped to fit in the pre-existing X-Men universe, which of course it wasn't. The film universes are separate and it's too late to change that now.

Honestly, there's a bunch of ways to bring the properties together. The reality gem, Scarlet Witch (either), or it could just be two of the nine realms already established. They put Marvel and DC up against each other a few times already. A Marvel vs Marvel crossover isn't impossible.
 
Honestly, there's a bunch of ways to bring the properties together. The reality gem, Scarlet Witch (either), or it could just be two of the nine realms already established. They put Marvel and DC up against each other a few times already. A Marvel vs Marvel crossover isn't impossible.

I'm not talking about a crossover, I'm saying that they've both clearly established themselves as separate realities, so that both would have to be radically transformed to put them together in a single world. It doesn't matter whether that's done through a straight reboot or through some ridiculous in-story handwave, because the latter is nothing but an excuse for the former anyway, so the effect is the same -- neither series could continue with its current identity, continuity, and style intact. Even aside from the fact that Fox would never agree to that at this point, it would simply be a bad idea, because both filmic universes have staked out their own distinct identities and have their own followings.

I mean, heck, of all the attempts to create ongoing cinematic universes to rival the MCU, the X-Men film universe is the closest thing to a successful one, in part because it came first. It's nice that at least some studio other than Marvel has been able to achieve something reasonably successful in that vein.
 
Sure, if you completely rewrite the way the X-Men are usually presented, then it isn't a problem.

You mean make the Mutant hatred less over-the-top?

And yes, I completely understand that people may be less disturbed by one group of superpowered people than another - but it IS partly the superpowers that always come up again and again when people rail against mutants, so it IS just a little weird that the Fantastic Four are sitting over here being beloved celebrities.

FF at least gave some sort of excuse: Reed Richards was already a respected scientist, so he was able to use this pre-existing fame to set the FF as celebrities. Plus they're very open about who they are and what they do while the X-Men always hide and make very little effort to cooperate with anyone to improve their image.

Let me put it this way, the MCU seems to be pretty much against the "Status Quo is God" idea while the FOX X-Men movies are made of "Status Quo is God".

If an MCU X-Men movie was made, I'd wager they'd end the first film with Xavier calling up a Press Conference to out himself as a Mutant and make it clear he runs a Mutant School.
 
Let me put it this way, the MCU seems to be pretty much against the "Status Quo is God" idea while the FOX X-Men movies are made of "Status Quo is God".

If an MCU X-Men movie was made, I'd wager they'd end the first film with Xavier calling up a Press Conference to out himself as a Mutant and make it clear he runs a Mutant School.
I can only surmise you haven't seen Days of Future Past, Apocalypse, or Logan. Heck, even The Last Stand played merry hell with the status quo in a lot of ways. The MCU hasn't done anything nearly as radical with its status quo as the X-Men film universe has.
 
I can only surmise you haven't seen Days of Future Past, Apocalypse, or Logan. Heck, even The Last Stand played merry hell with the status quo in a lot of ways. The MCU hasn't done anything nearly as radical with its status quo as the X-Men film universe has.

DOFP was all about undoing everything since X2 and resetting things.

Apocalypse was a bore that ended things the way they started.

Logan is set in some alternate future, so killing everyone one there doesn't count.

Last Stand is disliked BECAUSE it messed up the status quo.

The MCU has consistently messed up its status quo more than the X-Movies ever did. It just doesn't feel that way because there are just that many more MCU movies.
 
The MCU has consistently messed up its status quo more than the X-Movies ever did

How?

When did the MCU reset it's entire universe and then with Logan, jump to the end with no explanation on what happened inbetween.
 

Tony tossing the whole idea of the secret identity out the window in IM1. If this was a FoX-Men movie they'd have Xavier do something so make everyone forget about any revealed secrets in the end (like Moira in FC).

IM3, blowing up his house so he moves into Avengers Tower. In a FoX-Men movie they'd just rebuild his place the way the Mansion is always rebuilt.

Winter Soldier ended with the revelation that Hydra was still out there, more powerful than ever, and got rid of SHIELD in the capacity it was before. FoX-Men would have SHIELD still exist like nothing happened and have Hydra gone in one movie.

Civil War ended with the team disbanded and most of them on the run. FoX-Men wouldn't end the film like that. Yes they'll get back together but there's time between then.

I can go on.

When did the MCU reset it's entire universe and then with Logan, jump to the end with no explanation on what happened inbetween.

That's not status quo change, because Logan takes place in some alternate future. It's not the actual future of the X-Men, it was just an excuse to get Logan alone.
 
Tony tossing the whole idea of the secret identity out the window in IM1.

How is that messing up its status quo, it seems IM1 being the 1st film of the MCU gets to set the initial status quo of the MCU. Secret identities in the MCU have been lax since it started.

That's not status quo change, because Logan takes place in some alternate future. It's not the actual future of the X-Men, it was just an excuse to get Logan alone.

While probably the case, the film does not present itself as an alternative future just as the future.

The MCU hasn't done anything nearly as radical with its status quo as the X-Men film universe has.

Exactly, nothing in the MCU so far has rewritten past movies and rewriting history is the biggest shake up you can do within any universe, you are literally replacing the foundations.

FC/DOFP retools the entire X-Men universe far more than any MCU movie has ever done. If that's not throwing out the status quo (never mind changing it) I don't know what is. The MCU has not messed up anything, it's crafted a huge cinematic universe across film & TV while FOX can't seem to control theirs for more than a few movies at a time.
 
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